PFO Award RMAF 2010

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jimdgoulding

Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #20 on: 3 Nov 2010, 06:48 am »
Lou, encouraging to see you're open minded.  Of course, you are.  All this while I've been typing but Pez has enough disbelief for both of us.  I will see you later with some of my own.

david12

Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #21 on: 3 Nov 2010, 11:09 am »
 Alright, I've waited and nowone has asked, so I will have to, what's Master Set?  Someone has to show their ignorance.
   
  David

vinyl_lady

Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #22 on: 3 Nov 2010, 02:29 pm »
Alright, I've waited and nowone has asked, so I will have to, what's Master Set?  Someone has to show their ignorance.
   
  David

David,

it is a technique for positioning speakers in a room developed by Sumiko. Here is a description of the technique. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60819.0 I had my Daedalus DA-1.1s positioned using the Master Set technique and wrote about the experience here http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=73815.msg735386#msg735386

Laura

mfsoa

Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #23 on: 3 Nov 2010, 04:08 pm »
So Master Set = put your speakers where they sound good. wow. revolutionary. Would have never thought to actually move a speaker and listen to the result.

Pez

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Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #24 on: 3 Nov 2010, 04:12 pm »
That's an oversimplification in the extreme. Yes of course it's about maximizing your speaker placement, but it is based on some principles that some believe are proven through results.

Daedalus Audio

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Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #25 on: 3 Nov 2010, 04:54 pm »
Jason, you have a future in politics....  :D

davidrs

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Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #26 on: 3 Nov 2010, 05:26 pm »
PFO Award  The Best of the Best at 2010 RMAF
by Robert H. Levi
Speakers Under $10,000

"No doubt in my mind, the Daedalus DARMa Reference Monitors ($8595) in the ModWright room were speakers you could take home to mother! Detailed, warm, linear, rich, and truly amazing, I thought they cost $15,000! What a deal! Plus, ModWright electronics never sounded more fabulous. The ModWright Sony XA5400 with Ultimate Truth Mod ($3500) and a steal of steals, the LS 100 Linestage plus phono stage, ($3295+750), and the KWA 100SE power amp ($3995), was simply the deal of the century. The Soundstring Cable Technologies were used throughout to great effect."

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue52/rmaf2.htm


Thought this thread was about Daedalus receiving an award and recognition...


(and not about the pros and cons of the Master Set Technique).

Congratulations to Daedalus and ModWright. Great work!


mountain1

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Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #27 on: 3 Nov 2010, 10:42 pm »
Frank did the speaker placement in the First Sound room on Thursday.  He placed them based on his experience with his own Daedalus Ulysses.  I was there when Emmanuel first fired up the system.  The sound was magical and the best I have ever heard starting with the first sound --no pun intended.  Everything was there.  An amazing experience from anywhere in the room.

Pez

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Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #28 on: 3 Nov 2010, 11:33 pm »
I gotta hand it to him, Frank may be  an abrasive S.O.B., but he knows good sound.  :lol: Seriously though He has a knack for knowing what he likes and what he doesn't and for the most part I tend to agree with him. I always ask him what rooms he likes/dislikes just so I know what to hit or avoid.

jimdgoulding

Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #29 on: 4 Nov 2010, 01:38 am »
Seems to me, and sounds like in my room, that the way my speaks image and stage is gonna be affected by having my speakers different distances from a) my listening position, b) the wall behind.  I think the latter might produce overall smoother bass but imaging is skewed and depth of field and instrumental placement is less good higher up the spectrum than where my speakers normally sit.  My room is small and I sit in the nearfield and that may make these things more noticable.  Two feet off the wall behind is not enough for my speakers to allow the 3D imagery and space my system is capable of rendering. 

If I'm Lou and a speaker designer and MS placement sounds good from anyplace in the room as Mountian1 reported, I do it.  I'd be interested to know how equal room pressurization is measured, to see frequency response studies made at 2m and somebody's listening position, and a couple of power response takes of the speakers set up as MS recommends.  I think Laura's room would be fine cause it's rectangular and she can listen from a midpoint seat. 

BTW, I heard Lou's first edition speakers like Laura has in a church abbey with friends and some uptown equipment and they were fabulous.  I have no doubt they have gotten better.

vinyl_lady

Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #30 on: 4 Nov 2010, 02:44 am »
Jim,

My speakers are the 2nd generation DA-1.1's with the wiring and all poly crossover upgrades. I used to have the 1st generation DA-1's, but sold them in 2008 and bought the DA-1.1's. You are right about how sweet the DA-1's sound. My friend who bought the DA-1's powers them with 40 watt Cary class A monoblocks and loves the speakers and they sound great in his system. The DA-1.1's with the AP upgrade are a substantial upgrade over the original DA-1's. 

Laura

stvnharr

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Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #31 on: 4 Nov 2010, 03:20 am »
Alright, I've waited and nowone has asked, so I will have to, what's Master Set?  Someone has to show their ignorance.
   
  David

David,
This is the first, and might be the only, time I have posted on this AC forum, as I don't have Daedalus speakers.  But I did see the thread on the home AC page about the PFO Award and was curious as to which room at RMAF got the award as Daedalus had several rooms, one of them with speakers set with Master Set, room 1030 which I thought sounded pretty good.

So, congratulations to Lou on his award for the sound of his speakers in the Modwright room!!

Then this discussion on Master Set somehow erupted, and I see that Laura has linked to a thread I started about Master Set a couple years ago. Below is a brief introduction as to "what" Master Set is.

Master Set is simply a term coined by Rod Tomson, the proprietor of Soundings HiFi in Denver and the same Rod who set the speakers in Room 1030. The term "Master Set" is an extension of the work done by Sumiko that they developed into MASTERS, an acronym for Modal Acoustic Simplified Training Electronic Retail Specialist.
It is an in house training method in speaker setup that Sumiko provides for their dealers. As such, it is proprietary to Sumiko, and there is no real documentaion, white paper, or such about it.

Rod Tomson has kind of run with it, written some about it, and demonstrated it at earlier RMAF shows. In short, it's just a way to set up speakers in a room.

David, as you can read, it elicits some strong reactions, most often by those who have never heard speakers set up this way. If you want to know more, just do a search on AC for it.

Steve

jimdgoulding

Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #32 on: 4 Nov 2010, 05:35 am »
Jim,

My speakers are the 2nd generation DA-1.1's with the wiring and all poly crossover upgrades. I used to have the 1st generation DA-1's, but sold them in 2008 and bought the DA-1.1's. You are right about how sweet the DA-1's sound. My friend who bought the DA-1's powers them with 40 watt Cary class A monoblocks and loves the speakers and they sound great in his system. The DA-1.1's with the AP upgrade are a substantial upgrade over the original DA-1's, no doubt. 

Laura
Hi.  You have fff-ine speakers from what I've heard, mi lady, especially being 1.1's. 

Daedalus Audio

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Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #33 on: 4 Nov 2010, 04:09 pm »
Frank did the speaker placement in the First Sound room on Thursday.  He placed them based on his experience with his own Daedalus Ulysses.  I was there when Emmanuel first fired up the system.  The sound was magical and the best I have ever heard starting with the first sound --no pun intended.  Everything was there.  An amazing experience from anywhere in the room.
Frank has been a great help to me with his ears and advice for several years now, plus he's a thoughtful and kindhearted person, even if he can be a bit opinionated  :) .
btw even though I liked the MS placement in room 1030, I totally agree with Franks placement in the First Sound room... different room different rules.  also lets not forget the preamp there, I could be wrong but I do think the pre is crucial to getting great imaging and Emmanuels pre-amps are pure magic!
thanks,
lou


david12

Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #34 on: 5 Nov 2010, 01:46 pm »
 Laura and Steve, thanks for the info and links

  I have always questioned "schemes" for setting up speakers, not because of whether they work or not, but whether they can be applied in a domestic environment. It is one thing setting up quickly in an empty hotel room at a show, quite another in a crowded living room or music room.

  I probably have 9 to 12 inches I could move my speakers in my music room, it is simply so full of "stuff", that can'nt go anywhere else. Even that would'nt escape my wife's notice. One has to be reasonable in a domestic environment.

  As an aside, has anyone else noticed how the best systems in a show are often the cheaper ones. It never ceases to amaze me how some manufacturers try to fit big full range speakers into moderate sized, undamped hotel rooms. They are just not going to make them sound good. Why not bring a smaller speaker in the range with less LF extension?

figcon

Re: PFO Award RMAF 2010
« Reply #35 on: 9 Nov 2010, 07:35 pm »
Jeez...Abrasive and Opinionated....I'm one hell of a guy!!!

The sound in the different Daedalus rooms were different sounding, but none of the great sound and proper set up techniques would have worked had it not been for Lou's great sounding speakers.

I understand the MS technique, but I feel like I know Lou's speakers pretty well after all this time and was happy with the final location of Ulysses in the First Sound Room. It is pretty much the same I use in my own room, given small differences due to the different size rooms. In Lou's room, I would have pulled both speakers further out from the back wall and probably in a bit, trying to take the corners out of the equation, especially as far as imaging. I also think tonal balance and clarity would have benefited from this. It was more like that last year, but last year the speakers weren't set up symmetrically and I do very strongly believe that to be a definite don't do with Ulysses.

In fact, in Emmanuel's room, we had a very slight L/R balance issue which we solved by pulling the left speaker forward all of 1/2 an inch. With this, it became as perfect as we could make it. The Da1.1's and DA-RMa's might be a bit different and forgiving in this regard and that is a fundamental difference in the acoustic design of Ulysses and Lou's other speakers.

By the way, I agree with Lou regarding about Emmanuel Go's First Sound preamps. No remote and if I wasn't so lazy, I would own one. I might end up owning one anyway.