[Rob Babcock]

Are there any junkies here that are hooked on nearfield listening?  Just curious how you guys like your music.  I've been listening to my new little Griffin PowerWave that way, and I'd forgotten the charms of nearfield speaker placement...

[ooheadsoo]

I'd like to hear more opinions.  I've no real experience with mid or farfield listening because I do all of my listening in front of my computer.  I use NHT Pro A-10 monitors with their 150wpc dual mono control amp and an Adcom passive pre.

[Rob Babcock]

Details really pop when you're two feet away from the speakers.  Listening in the near field can help overcome the sound of your room and help mitigate poor acoustics, too.

Another benefit is that you don't need as much power, although with a 150 watt dual mono rig, it doesn't sound like power is a prob in your rig.

[ooheadsoo]

Yes, I love hearing the details in the recordings.  It's not the ultimate resolving system but it's better than what I had before    The NHTs are sealed, so having a lot of power on tap seems a good idea.  I'm thinking of picking up the $125 Dayton 10" sub from partsexpress to complement my system.

[DVV]

Are there any junkies here that are hooked on nearfield listening?  Just curious how you guys like your music.  I've been listening to my new little Griffin PowerWave that way, and I'd forgotten the charms of nearfield speaker placement...

Define "nearfield", Rob. I've heard many a definition, and mine is that you are doing it if your speakers are up to 6 feet away.

If this is acceptable, then I'd have to say I only listen nearfield. My spekares are about 6 feet away from me, but I am staring at rather large boxes, each of which weighs in at about 60 lbs and has a 10" bass, 5" midrange and 1" titanium dome tweeter (XO points at 800/3,000 Hz). These are powered by 180 watts per channel (8 ohms), connected by van den Hul CS352 cables (2x256 strands of silver plated OFC copper and carbon fibre).

I've been at it for over 10 years now and do not plan on ever going back to "normal". To me, this is the way to go, if at all possible. I can't quite describe it, but I feel I get more of the music into my system this way.

Cheers,
DVV

[ooheadsoo]

I've seen it defined as up to 6 or 8 feet away, though to me, that's a bit close.  NHT's specs define NF as 1m, MF as 2m, and FF as 3m, but everyone says something different.  The difference is that NHT has tweeter attenuation settings for each position, and some inbetween.

[Rob Babcock]

Correct me if my understanding is wrong, but isn't the "norm" in listening room size a bit smaller in Europe than in North America?  I ask only because our perceptions of "large" and "small" may be a bit different.

I'll accept 6' as nearfield, but to me I guess I'm thinking 3 or 4 feet.  That's probably splittin hairs; I doubt the extra 2 feet would matter much.  My main rig has the front speakers 14' from my listening sofa, certainly not nearfield at all.  It's an interestin contrast going from my System 2 where I'm a few feet from the speakers to System 1 where the room is large.  The nearfield rig is very detailed, but can't reproduce the bass I get in my He Man Rig (with a pair of subs with 2 x 500 W amps).

This could be a very intersting discussion, so I hope some more folks will chime in with their experiences.

[Rob Babcock]

BTW, DVV, do you have any probs with driver integration that close?  I prefer smallish two-ways for listening really close up, but I guess driver spacing on a three-way could be fairly tight, too, depending on the design.

[JLM]

I prefer to thinking of nearfield (within 6 feet or 2 meters) as monitoring more than listening because of the level of intensity (dynamics and detail) it provides.  

One big advantage of nearfield that's often neglected is the option to place your set-up in a non-symetrical layout in relation to the rest of the room.  If done correctly high frequency room reflections delay will increase significantly as the number of reflections (and associated distances) needed before returning to your ears increase.  The result is less room interaction (clearer sound) and reduced listener fatigue as your brain isn't required to sort out the direct from the reflected sounds.  This option can be much cheaper/easier than room treatments.

Nearfield monitoring really highlights the advantages of single driver speakers (or at least a single driver with subwoofer).  I'm having single driver speakers custom developed for me as an R&D project by a small vendor that will reach down to 30 Hz in room.  The drivers will be located at my ear height in my favorite chair for nearfield monitoring.  Total cost of the production speaker should be around $2,500/pair.

Nearfield use of single driver speakers is halfway between headphones and "normal" speaker use and have the sonic advantages of both.  In the case of single driver speakers it also does away with concerns regarding high frequency "beaming" as you're trying to factor out room reflections anyway.  On a side note, this beaming effect can be useful to tone down "agressive" high frequency performance, so I don't take it purely as a negative.

The real challenges to nearfield are WAF/room use issues and the highlighting of all the distortions in your system.  The increased "intensity" highlights all the warts.  The quote, "You can't handle the truth," comes to mind.  

Like most aspects of audio, its a matter of compromises and trade offs.  Designated single user status versus adding in room effects and improved intensity versus finding the flaws.

[DVV]

BTW, DVV, do you have any probs with driver integration that close?  I prefer smallish two-ways for listening really close up, but I guess driver spacing on a three-way could be fairly tight, too, depending on the design.

No Rob, frankly, I don't have ANY integration problems. Just to remind you, these are speakers I wrote the design brief on, which were later developed by a good friend of mine. Unfortunately, their company, B&M Acoustics, broke up and is no longer in business. However, I hope he (the guy's name is Mirko) manages to get back into business on his own, I see he's hankering for it (hardly surprising, audiophilia is a terminal disease).

Anyway, we spent about two months turning blueprints into reality, but after that, we spent over six months fine tuning it by auditioning and then measuring, then all over again "n" times. Over 20 people made up our listening panel, half of them professional musicians, philharmonia people and rockers all on the same sofa.

It is in many ways my hommage to JBL's one and only 4312 monitor, in the early 80-ies also known as Century L100. It is TOTALLY against today's fashon - squat, three way, front baffle angled at 9 degrees (phase linear at 3-4 m, or 10-14 feet), 12 dB/oct electrical plus 6 dB/oct acoustic crossovers, needs stands and is DAMN heavy. It works on the old BBC 2-by-1 format, reflex.

But it expends on classic ideas in several ways. For the details, read about it on my own site, http://www.zero-distortion.com , it goes by the name of 1042 Monitor. Some shots there too.

Anyway, a better part of those six months was spent on driver integration because I am an absolute idiot believer in integration - damn anything and everything else if it is not seamless. This quest caused some interesting compromises, such as, for example, bass tuning at 35 Hz, whereas it was possible to go below 30 Hz, but at the cost of some disturbance higher up (a bit o' ringing around 500 Hz). It also had to be reasonably efficient (and at 93 dB/2.83V/1m it is so - note I say 2.83V rather than 1W because it is the easiest load I have ever seen, its 8 ohm impedance dips to 6.5 ohms in just one place, and for the rest, it's above 8 ohms, phase shift -25 degrees worst case on one place only) and an easy-to-drive-load - I have too many SET and tubie friends.

As you correctly point out, integration always is a problem, and with a three way, a much worse one than with a two way. But if you do get it right, the payoff is magnificent - you have each driver working completely inside its own optimum range, which is not possible with a 2 way (where you always have to make some serious compromises).

I would suggest you try for nearfield listening to have your speakers slightly above your head, not much, no more than half a foot from its bottom side to the top of your head. It can be VERY interesting, I had a great discussion about this with Bascom King some time ago, he also prefers this to straight line arrangements.

Another interesting point - nearfield listening can produce sometimes even amazing results if your speakers are NOT toed in so as to point directly at you, but this will also greatly depend on your room and its acoustics. Anyway, try it Rob, no other way you can ever know for sure.

Cheers,
DVV

[mgalusha]

I much prefer not listening near field for a couple of reasons.

When I listen to live music I find I enjoy it more when sitting say 10 rows back from the stage. Unless one is perfectly centered when sitting close the instrument or monitor speaker you are closest to tends to dominate and other members of the band/ensemble/whatever can be difficult if not impossible to hear. I much prefer having enough distance so that I can hear everything that's going on.

I feel the same way when listening to a stereo system. I like having enough distance between the speakers and my position so that all of the drivers have integrated well. I use a fairly large three way speaker and the manufacturer indicates it takes about 9 feet for the drivers to integrate properly. My listening position is about 12 feet from the speakers.

I find sitting at a distance of 6 or 7 feet (or closer) is too much like sitting too close to the stage. While the details and dynamics can be very good I enjoy a somewhat more mellow presentation. Maybe I'm just getting old, not that 43 is very old.

mike g

[Rob Babcock]

I think you misunderstand me, DVV- I don't mean integration problems due to the speaker not being designed well.  I'm referring to the fact that larger speakers with more drivers that are widely spaced often need some space/distance for all the drivers to converge/integrate properly.  When you're very close to a multi-element speaker, you can often hear each driver individually, which is not ideal for music.  Of course, at 6 or 7 feet it's a bit different than at 2 feet!

I recall you telling us the story of your speakers- they seem pretty interesting.  It's a shame that most of us Yanks will never get the chance to hear them.  I hope your friend gets "back in the saddle again," so to speak and can restart production.  What would such a speaker cost if sold in the US?

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of options as to where to place my speaker for the PC.  At least, until I replace my desk and rearrange the room.  And that will probably be sooner rather than later now that I have the Griffin PowerWave; it's truly a remarkable little amplifier.

[orthobiz]

I guess I have it all wrong; I thought nearfield involved  putting the speakers on the long wall rather than the short wall.

Check out:
http://www.immediasound.com/Speakersetup.html

My room is 10 x 23 and I've been experimenting with nearfield first (I just finished the room), but I like not having all the reflections coming down that long wall with the "more traditional" far wall configuration.

biz

[Rob Babcock]

One odd effect of very nearfield listening, IMO, is that you sometimes get more detail that you could ever hear in a real performance.  Sort of like putting a magnifying glass up to something;  a telescope will allow you a much better view of the sky than the naked eye, but that's not the experience you'd get viewing "the real thing."

This isn't really a criticism, more like an observation.

[ooheadsoo]

It's because what you are getting is a "microphone's" point of view, not an audience member's.  Mics are usually placed closer than most of the audience.  You also get to hear what the recording engineer heard when he mic'd or mixed the project, which is also cool.

[DVV]

I think you misunderstand me, DVV- I don't mean integration problems due to the speaker not being designed well. I'm referring to the fact that larger speakers with more drivers that are widely spaced often need some space/distance for all the drivers to converge/integrate properly. When you're very close to a multi-element speaker, you can often hear each driver individually, which is not ideal for music. Of course, at 6 or 7 feet it's a bit different than at 2 feet!

Oh - so sorry. Again, no, I don't have any problems. When making them, I knew I would want them clean as a whistle even at 4-5 feet, and that's how it was done. At 3 feet, they start to come "unstuck", meaning you start hearing a set of drivers, not the speaker as a whole. But at 5 feet and over, no such problems.

I recall you telling us the story of your speakers- they seem pretty interesting. It's a shame that most of us Yanks will never get the chance to hear them. I hope your friend gets "back in the saddle again," so to speak and can restart production. What would such a speaker cost if sold in the US?

Don't discourage me, Rob, I'm working hard here to get that guy back into the business. Frankly, it's a shared job, half because he is a friend I respect, and half because he's so damn good at it (or at least I think so). So, "you Yanks" might still have a chance. Bascom King told me that if ever a pair crossed the Atlantic, he would want to review it, and after 35 years of reviewing in magazines like "Stereo", "Audiophile", "Stereophile" and God knows where else, I do put stock in his views. Since he and James Bongiorno are good friends of old, I have a good idea of what would be driving them - the Ampzilla 2000, of course.

I paid 1,200 euros for mine, which is about US$ 1,500. Add shipping via air cargo, taxes and whatnot, off hand, I'd say you could get away with no more than US$ 2,500 per pair, or less. No peanut money, to be sure, but in my view, well worth it. Remember, I split the crossover into three separate boards, you have three pairs of binding posts, so you can biwire, triwire, biamp or triamp anytime you feel like it with simple mods each taking no more than 30 minutes per box. Ultimately, you can turn them into fully active boxes, albeit with outside amps (not built-in). Wiring is by pure silver wire throughout.

Unfortunately I don't have a lot of options as to where to place my speaker for the PC. At least, until I replace my desk and rearrange the room. And that will probably be sooner rather than later now that I have the Griffin PowerWave; it's truly a remarkable little amplifier.

Use the opportunity to play with speaker locations, Rob, that will be a very interesting exercise and could yield some outstanding results.

Cheers,
DVV