[sarge_in]

Yep, one of those "I got it too!" threads again

Finally the end of a longish journey for me. I had been using a very basic pair of Polk R300 speakers for a while. After purchasing Polk RTiA7 speakers a few months back and comparing them to the much renowned Monitor Audio RS6 I borrowed from a dealer for a week, I ended up returning both. I had found the Polks bright for my taste, and while the RS6 were better, I was not impressed by its soundstage. The Polks had a much wider soundstage. I was at a loss of where to turn to get the perfect speakers for me. Listened to several more - PSB, B&W, Quad, Klipsch, etc but still found myself searching for more. Somehow the Salks kept cropping up in my quest, and after some initial hesitation in going with a brand that did not have any dealers around and reading all available forum threads from the start to end I decided to take a chance on SongTowers + Song Center + Song Sub without even listening to them. And the wait proved well worth it when I finally received these the week before 

Needless to say, the purchase experience was as everyone had mentioned. Excellent communication by Jim, who answered all my basic questions very patiently. I went with a Santos Rosewood veneer with a bit of red. As several people here know, the finish is BEAUTIFUL, the grain is stunning, and the sound that emanates from these boxes is nothing short of amazing. Looks wise, I do not remember seeing a better finish during all my search. They are truly furniture-grade and gorgeous to look at! Sound-wise, I find the Songs to be extremely detailed without being bright at all. To me, this is one of the key things, as I have mostly heard speakers either get muddy or too bright, but don't remember hearing such a balanced sound that gives me the best of both worlds.

Not to be satisfied yet, and having heard of big claims that these can compete with speakers much more expensive I decided to test that statement. Got a pair of B&W CM9 from Best Buy to do an in-home comparison. And I am so delighted that all claims stand validated, and more! The Song Towers walked all over the CM9, except for just 1 category. First the plusses - the biggest differences were amount of detail, vocals and separation of instruments. HUGE difference to me. Where the CM7 seemed like a wool of sound coming from the center for most part, the ST had every different sound clearly defined and the instruments placed around ready to be spatially picked. The vocals that were so subdued in CM9 were crystal clear and very natural in the ST. The soundstage is wider with the ST as well (but still placed within the speakers). The only area where CM9 had an edge was bass. Their sound felt much fuller than the ST. Listening to that made me realize what I was still missing, and have since turned to listening even to music with the sub which now sounds much better. I am guessing that CM9 advantage would disappear if it were the HT2-TL, and left me wondering if I should have gone with that in the first place. Still, this was a huge leap for me from $100 Polks to $2000+ ST (even more total as I got the Center and Sub as well), and I have absolutely no regrets. Of course, if money was no object, I would already have called Jim to upgrade to HT2-TL.

And this is all with 'just' an Onkyo receiver and Sonos system (another outstanding product btw) in a large echo-filled untreated room. I am sure there is much more to extract from the speakers whenever I decide to upgrade the electronics.

A big thanks to Jim, Dennis and the whole Salk team!! And also to Nuance, funkmonkey, floresjc and several others on this forum who helped me decide knowingly / unknowingly!

I do have one question though - at least a few times in the last week itself I have found myself deciding to sit down for a song or two, and then find myself unable to get up even after an hour. Considering all the time I am 'losing' because of these speakers, shouldn't Jim be paying ME?! 

[Rich5616]

Hey sarge_in,
 Glad to hear of superb purchase. I,too have same Song-
towers,center,sub in Santos Rosewood. Last week added
AVA 240/3 to the mix and took the trio to another level
of sonic pleasure.

[Nuance]

What a great story, Sarge - thanks for sharing it (I never get enough of these)! 

In regards to the CM9 and their better bass, I am confused: their frequency response specs from the B&W website say they reach only to the mid 50's...  The SongTower's are conservatively rated at 42hz, and hit 38Hz with authority.  You should be achieving a better, deeper response.  However, the B&W does have two dedicated 6.5" bass drivers, as opposed to the ST's dual 5 inchers, so it should move more air and provide more slam (in theory).  I wonder if your listening position or speaker placement is causing a null below 60Hz, as you should be hearing the extended depth of the ST's

Anyway, I am glad you're enjoying the Salk's.  Welcome to the Salk family!

P.S.  I cross over to a subwoofer(s) too, but it took some real time and effort to achieve a proper blend.  And go figure, I'll be moving again soon and will have to re-do the room setup/eq all over again. 

[sarge_in]

Rich - Congrats! I am sure the AVA are a great match with the Salks. There are surely on my shortlist as well whenever I am ready for it..

Nuance - Exactly my thoughts! Even I was VERY surprised when I looked up the CM9 specs, and reached the same conclusion as you that the difference had to be due to the larger drivers. The speakers were placed right next to each other alternatively. I still need to play with placement and esp sub.  Will post pics later tonight to see if you (or others) have any suggestions.

Btw, are there any good guides out there for sub tuning / setup? This is my first sub with parametric eq so looking for tips on that esp. I have setup discs and radioshack spl meter that I use to setup my system.

[billmcc]

Btw, are there any good guides out there for sub tuning / setup? This is my first sub with parametric eq so looking for tips on that esp. I have setup discs and radioshack spl meter that I use to setup my system.

For sub placement and EQ tips I would join over at The Home Theater Shack and check out the REW forum. I have a Rythmik F12SE that has a PEQ and REW was key to helping me take advantage of the PEQ. Learning REW was a bit intimidating for me as I am not very computer savvy . But the members over at The Shack were very patient and extremely helpful until I got it (the basics anyway). I also bought an Anti-Mode 8033 auto sub EQ that works wonders in my room .

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/

http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-8033.shtml

Bill

[sarge_in]

Thanks Bill...will look those up. My room is weirdly shaped for sound, so hopefully this will be helpful.

Here are a few pics. Any suggestions on placement etc are welcome!

[sarge_in]

I wonder if your listening position or speaker placement is causing a null below 60Hz, as you should be hearing the extended depth of the ST's

Just ran a quick series of test tones (1 hz increments from 10-80 hz), just by ear for now. A few observations:
1.  I am getting a 'ringing' sound at some frequencies - 10-20 hz, ok from 21-24, again at 25, then at 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80. Weird that they are all at such regular intervals.
2.  Dips at 43, 44, 57-63 (u were right on!)

[jsalk]

I noticed you had an Onkyo receiver.  Are you using Audyssey to calibrate the system?  If so, try turning it off.  Also, try listening to music in the "Direct" mode if you have not already done so.

- Jim

[Art_Chicago]

I love my ST's and their tight bass in particular, but I should say that when I compared them with Paradigm Signature 6 ($4.5-5K) speakers at my home, I noticed that the S6 sounded "fuller" in the low region. Not deeper, but like they would have a hump at 50-70 Hz, and the ST's don't. I did run the bass tones on ST's and did not notice a dip above 40Hz, it was about flat as Jim promised! (I do not own a SPL meter, just did by ear    ).   There are 2 bass woovers on S6 6 or 7" in diameter as with B&W C9. So it may be a factor. Just wanted to share my experience 

[sarge_in]

I noticed you had an Onkyo receiver.  Are you using Audyssey to calibrate the system?  If so, try turning it off.  Also, try listening to music in the "Direct" mode if you have not already done so.

- Jim

Jim - I actually never liked Audyssey much, so have never used it. I just enter speaker distances manually and match levels using the SPL meter. Do not use any eq either so far. And I did listen in the Direct mode to start with - this sounded the cleanest but for the fullness. And then switched to Stereo with the sub engaged after experimenting with CM9.

Any other ideas, esp about the ringing/whistling sound? I may pull my old speakers tonight to see if the issue is with the recordings itself, though I doubt that.

Art - good to know I am not alone in hearing the difference. To my (untrained) ear as well, the ST sounded quite flat 38 hz onward (except for some ringing and a couple dips as noted above, which I am sure is mostly due to the room), but there is still the fullness thing. Don't know if the CM9 (and your Paradigms) bump their lows a bit, or if it is just the larger drivers.

[DMurphy]

It just sounds like the B&W port tuning is warmer.  I'm pretty sure the ST's are voiced flat in that region.  As for whistling noises--I have no idea.  Unless it's port noise--I forget--what kind of signal are you feeding them, and at how high a level?

[Art_Chicago]

It just sounds like the B&W port tuning is warmer. 

  Dennis, maybe it is just me, but please explain it for those who do not design crossovers for Salk Sound

[DMurphy]

Dennis, maybe it is just me, but please explain it for those who do not design crossovers for Salk Sound

I wasn't trying to be technical.  If I were, I would have talked about "Q"values.  All I was suggesting is that the box may be tuned to emphasize the midbass a bit--hence "warm" or "full" sound.   It's very common in bass reflex designs. 

[sarge_in]

It just sounds like the B&W port tuning is warmer.  I'm pretty sure the ST's are voiced flat in that region.  As for whistling noises--I have no idea.  Unless it's port noise--I forget--what kind of signal are you feeding them, and at how high a level?

The tones are mp3's converted from wav's I got somewhere online. Running them through NAS -> (hard-wired) Sonos -> (optical) Onkyo 707 receiver -> Speakers. I think I was around -10 - -15 dB level.

[sarge_in]

I wasn't trying to be technical.  If I were, I would have talked about "Q"values.  All I was suggesting is that the box may be tuned to emphasize the midbass a bit--hence "warm" or "full" sound.   It's very common in bass reflex designs. 

Ah, I see. Another basic q - does that change the frequency response from flat, or are the two unrelated?

[DMurphy]

Ah, I see. Another basic q - does that change the frequency response from flat, or are the two unrelated?

It would show up as a frequency response peak, but it's hard to get accurate room measurements in that range.  This has nothing to do with crossover design.  It's strictly a matter of how the box is tuned, taking into account port size, box volume, and the driver parameters. 

[jsalk]

Just for the record, when Paul Kittinger designed the SongTower TL cabinet (using Martin King's matcad formulas), his goal was to produce the most accurate response along with the deepest bass extension possible from the drivers.  He did not tune the cabinet to produce an artificially "warm" or "full" response.  The goal was accuracy.

- Jim

[Paul K.]

For the record, I design/model TLs to have the flattest possible response down to the knee in the response curve, whose frequency depends mostly on the driver(s) and box volume.  For my personal designs I am happy to achieve a flat response to 40 Hz and an F3 somewhere in the 30s.  If for a given box volume the response curve is flat to a lower frequency and F3 is even lower, that's fine but not a requirement for my personal use and music tastes.
Paul

Just for the record, when Paul Kittinger designed the SongTower TL cabinet (using Martin King's matcad formulas), his goal was to produce the most accurate response along with the deepest bass extension possible from the drivers.  He did not tune the cabinet to produce an artificially "warm" or "full" response.  The goal was accuracy.

- Jim

[Art_Chicago]

thanks for all the comments above 

[billmcc]

Sarge,

One thing that would concern me is the way both STs are half on and half off the area rug in your room. I can not see if you leveled them some how but if not I would be concerned about them tipping over. When you mention the ringing/whistling sound does it just happen when you are playing test tones? Do you here it when playing music or movies? I would try running Audyssey just to see how it sounds then you could always turn it off.

By the way the Santos Rosewood is a beautiful finish .

Bill