[DeadFan]

Well I've paid for my Rev's. The master (Bob Smith) is now putting together my external crossovers and various interconnects. I now need to get cracking and decide on the rest of my system.

Heeeeelllpp. Need advice/suggestions on Amps, Pre-amp, Source equipment. I have changed my mind so often in regards to the above, I'm almost scared to make a decision.

My original intention was to buy a second hand (couldn't afford/justify the new price) pair of DM88 Halcro Monoblock amps and their DM 8 Pre-Amp (again s/hand) Stereophile raves about them as have other reviewers. However, a couple of people in  audio manufacturing have advised against them. Also I am a little leery of buying second hand, especially as all up they fetch around $25,000 second hand.
I own a pair of NuForce Ref 9V2SE (would you believe I upgraded to the 2SE's about a week before the V3SE's were announced) with P8 Pre-Amp and while I think they would sound OK with the Rev's, I am looking to go a little further than their capabilities. Maybe the new NuForce Reference 18 amps would be worth looking at.

The Amps I have shortlisted are NuForce Reference 18, Spectron Musician III Mk2 , Modwright KWA 150,  DAC 's Cherry Plus and s/hand Halcro Dm88. The Spectron's are very tempting as they are now being sold direct and the price as a result, appears to have halved. They also receive rave reviews. NuForce would give me the advantage of trading up my Ref 9/P9 combo. Tommy of the DAC  also sells direct, so his amps also appear good value for money. Dan's KWA 150's have good reviews.
 
To complicate matters Bob Smith has told me the Rev's go to another level when bi-amped. I definitely couldn't afford to buy 4 Halcro monoblocks, but as I understand it the KWA 150, Cherry Plus and Spectron's are stereo amps. Does this mean I would only need a pair of any one of those 3, to bi-amp my Rev's?

My Pre-Amp shortlist is Modwright LS 36.5 with separate power supply, Halcro DM8 and NuForce P9 or P18. The Halcro and Modwright units have fully balanced connects. How much of an advantage is this?
I am very much looking for input/advice from my AC friends. Maybe it would be best to simplify things and leave the source topic for another thread.

Regards
Graham

PS: teb_b, as a Revelation owner yourself, I would be very interested to know why you changed your amps from the Spectron's (which you appeared to be very happy with), to Modwright KWA 150's.

[Charles Xavier]

I'm Jealous and hope your local so I can hear these guys. Tommy has mono Cherry amps now but not on his website yet so you can check with him

[bhobba]

I too have had experience with biamping and for me it made a significant difference so, especially if Bob recommends it, it is what I would do.  Also with biamping you can get away with a bit less power for the same volume, so you won't need as much power.  My suggestion is two DAC Cherry junior amps at $1999.00 each.
http://www.digitalamp.com/cherryjr.htm

With a minimum of 380w per channel and bi amped you will have more than enough power IMHO.  Plenty of people have reported excellent results with Bob's speakers and Cherry amps. I personally don't listen at levels loud enough to warrant that type of power but Bob's speakers really like to be wound up so you probably won't be able to resist it.  And yes you will need two cherry amps at a total of $3998.00.

For a preamp I like the truth preamp:
http://www.thehornshoppe.com/the_truth_pre_amp.html

The optical potentiometer it uses removes all the issues with conventional volume controls.  For a review of a similar unit check out:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/p&s_optopot_e.html

For the DAC I simply can not recommend anything better than the new Tranquility signature at the introductory price of $1895:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=74816.540

I have the base version.  The Signature is significantly better.  The base version however IMHO when fed with a mac mini and using Pure Music now pips a statement DAC that the owner said this about:
'But let me say the things a beast ! I’ve spent time with a full DCS stack and I can tell you the Connor24 smacks it down simple as that. The 24 is a DCS stack with a velvet glove.'

I will be going over there tomorrow to check it out if it does pip it.  But the owner of the DAC already admits it is comparable to it.  That is the base model - the signature is better again.

But to get that level of performance you must be prepared to use a new model Mac Mini as the source and a program like Pure Music.  However some recent listening tests I did showed as a transport it was up there with the best at any price.

Thanks
Bill

[DeadFan]

Charles
Depends where local is. How about Sydney, Australia. Even if thats not local, plenty of cheap flights available these days. No accommodation costs needed, plenty of spare beds. no speakers yet though, as Bob has yet to do crossovers.

I would be interested in Tommy's new monoblock amps. All owners of his products appear very satisfied.

Bill
Thanks for the +1 on Cherry amps. Might have to PM Tommy for 4 amp price. Do like the feedback on his Cherry Plus though. Bill, you're also in Australia. A few months back you were posting in a thread on transport/customs costs to Australia. What was the final consensus? I have yet to work out how and how much.

Graham

[DeadFan]

Bill
When I reponded to your post, I didn't realize you were still going.
I must admit I had a pre conceived bias against computer based music. I was therefore in the main looking at high end disc players. However, so many AC members have converted and given such positive reports, that I have been convinced to give it a try.
At one stage the rave review, that Srajan at 6 Moons gave the Modwright modified transporter, had me convinced to go that way, but I notice that a number of AC'ers (including ted_b) have moved on from the Transporter to your suggestion of Mac Mini and DAC. Ted is using a Weiss DAC but I like the price of your suggestion very much. I will do some research on the Tranquility.

Graham

[bhobba]

Hi Dead Fan

I have imported a couple of things now and it is painless.  Sometimes you are lucky enough for it to get through without customs - I was that lucky a couple of times.  You simply order it, get it sent airfreight and pay the GST etc when customs contact you.   It was not as hard as I thought it would be.

With the strength of the Australian dollar now is a good time to do it.

I would however check with the Cherry amp guys on if you can get a 240V version.  If not have a think about some Van Alstine stuff:
http://www.avahifi.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=153&Itemid=210

It definitely is available in 240V.  Its probably a good amp to think about anyway.

Since you are in Australia I would suggest the DAC and Pre Amp you should get is the PDX Mike Lehehan is working on.  It showed up really well in a DAC shootout I attended:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=84451.40

Both the Tranquility and the PDX are comparable to the Conner statement DAC.  Although I have both DAC's because I believe they are each better at different things I would tend to go for the PDX in your situation because it will have a built in statement pre amp as an option. Contact Mike Lenehan to order one at about $2-3K depending on the options you want:
http://www.lenehanaudio.com.au/contact.php

Remember that is for both DAC and Preamp.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

When I reponded to your post, I didn't realize you were still going.  I must admit I had a pre conceived bias against computer based music. I was therefore in the main looking at high end disc players. However, so many AC members have converted and given such positive reports, that I have been convinced to give it a try.
At one stage the rave review, that Srajan at 6 Moons gave the Modwright modified transporter, had me convinced to go that way, but I notice that a number of AC'ers (including ted_b) have moved on from the Transporter to your suggestion of Mac Mini and DAC. Ted is using a Weiss DAC but I like the price of your suggestion very much. I will do some research on the Tranquility.

Hi Graham

I was with Mike Lenehan and a guy from Melbourne the Friday before last.  He had sold a Transporter and wanted a new DAC.  We compared a WFS DAC 2, the Tranquility and the PDX.  To his ears the WFS was very similar to the Transporter.  Both the Tranquility and PDX clobbered the WFS, no contest.  The PDX sounds better on most material but there are some material the Tranquility sounds better on.  The guy chose the PDX but you may prefer the Tranquility.  In your situation I would tend to go for the PDX because you also need a pre amp and it has that as an option.  It is also available in both a USB and SPDIF version while the Tranquility is available just in a USB version.

Considering the money you are spending on Bob's excellent speakers I would strongly urge you like the guy from Melbourne to take a trip up to Mike's place on the Gold Coast and check out both the Tranquility and PDX.  Mikes speakers are also quite similar to Bob's so it will be similar to what you will eventually have.  If you do decide to come up let me know and I will come down with my Tranquility so you can do the comparison.

Thabks
Bill

[phusis]

Graham -

Congrats with your upcoming Revelations

My recommendations:

Poweramp: Upgrade the NuForce Ref9V2SE's to V3, or go Ref 18's.

Preamp: See 'Source.'

Source: A combined D/A converter and preamp(with digital attenuation) named Blue Cheese-something developed by Karsten Elkjaer, the Danish distributor(www.studiosound.dk) of NuForce and Aether Audio speakers. Unfortunately info on the device is sparse, but if interested you could contact Karsten. I haven't tried out the apparatus in my own setup, but judging by the total sound of Karstens setup(which also comprises the Revelations and Ref 9V3SE) it can (more than) hold its own against most anything I've ever heard.
The recommendation is not trivial; omitting a separate hardware preamp in exchange of named(or rather unnamed) combo is likely to present a sonic advantage - although many factors may be at play here. Myself I very successfully use a semi-similar, yet more modest setup comprising an RME HDSP 9632 soundcard(possibly to be replaced with a Lynx L22 soundcard in the near future) with the analogue outs connected directly to a NuForce Stereo 8.5V3 poweramp, which is then feeding a pair of SP Tech Timepiece 3.0's. The "preamp" is simply a J River MC15 playback application(a la Windows Media Player, Foobar, or what have you) using its internal digital volume control and the music "drawn" via lossless files on the harddrive. I know, many an audiophile may shake his/her head hearing of internal soundcards and digital attenuation in conjunction with high quality music reproduction, but I can only wholeheartedly recommend this type of setup(i.e.: saying bye bye to a conventionel preamp, use of digital attenuation, and storing your music lossless on a harddrive). Getting the most out of a computer-based source takes a little getting-to-know how to properly set it up, but here's a site that may come in handy in this regard: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/Windows-7-Audio-J-River-Media-Center-14-Configuration

Should you be interested in trying out cables I can warmly recommend Mundorf's Silver/Gold solid core cables, both to speakers and as IC's - differently gauged, of course. They're a wonderful "blend" in my setup.

[DeadFan]

Bill.

You mentioned using air freight for transport, is that still viable with the Rev's being so heavy or should I look at sea transport.

I would like to give bi-amping a go. The cost worries me though. The amps I am looking at are around $5000 ea. I'm not sure I can justify 4 of them. I do have the the NuForce 9SEV2's up my sleeve. Maybe I could use those for the tweeters and say the Modwrights(if I go that way) for the woofers. I wonder if that would kill the synergy of the system though. Bob, what do you think?
I am eagerly awaiting a response from ted_b, to see how he is utilizing his Modwrights.  The KWA 150's are a stereo amp in their own right. I'm not sure if having two of them would then allow bi-amping. Ted where are you?

Bill and phusis.

Thanks for the suggestions on DAC's. I am heavily researching them as I find time. The Tranquility Signature and PDX are both worth considering. I remember Karsten posting about his DAC quite some time ago. I hadn't thought about that one. I will contact him for an update on it.

A DAC with an inbuilt pre-amp would be a great cost saver but I read of mixed reports whe not using a dedicated pre-amp. I would take some convincing that doing so would't compromise the sound. The Modwright dealer in Australia has highly recommended a real "jack of all trades" type product, the Bladelius Embla. It is a Swedish company and combines a DAC, pre-amp, and flash memory (harddrive) system and at $10000-$13000 it would want to be pretty good. I must admit it has received reasonable reviews.
Another pre-amp type DAC I have been monitoring is Alex Peychev's APL DAC. He has always promoted his playback systems as direct to amp. Things are very quiet around his website at the moment so I don't know what progress he has made on his new DAC.
A number of A/C members including ted_b are trialing the new Antelope Zodiac+ and early impressions are very favourable.

I do want to sort amplifiers out first, so am looking forward to hearing from ted_b re his Modwright/Spectron change of heart.

Graham













 

[ted_b]

Graham,
I have a PM into you from last week regarding this.  But I can post here too, if you want.

The move from Spectron monoblocks (and only monoblocks, they kick serious arse over the stereo amp) to Modwright monoblocks was simply due to the fact that I'd changed my sources and pre considerably over the past 2 years and needed a little yin to the yang.  The KWA 150 monoblocks (again, wayyy better than their stereo brethren, which are no slouches) provide me a better, smoother top end albeit at a very slight loss in bass control (I went from a 10 to a 9.9; not a show stopper).  Both amp pairs provide wonderfully rich midrange tones. 

I am going to sell my Spectrons as monoblock pairs only (complete with custom Synergistic Research XLR y-adapters and prototype Elrod custom Remote Sense speaker cables that blew people away at RMAF 2008).  If I don't a fair price I'll try them in bi-amp mode (Spectrons as bass amps!!  ).  I think the two pairs have same gain (26 db).

The Antelope Zodiac Plus is quite a nice DAC for the price, and has very good flexibility (many inputs and outputs, volume control, headphone amp, etc.).  I am very late in writing up a review.  i think I'll use some down time during my RMAF trip (plane flight, etc) to write up a thread.

I will add more but am exhausted (long story) from my wife's political campaign.  I'm looking forward to RMAF as some rest time. 

By the way,   CONGRATS ON THE REVS!!!   

[Tyson]

Tubes!!  For source, I like both Scott Nixon's latest (with the CCS module for the tubes, and I2S for the digital, plus a very nice NOS DAC implementation), as well as the Wavelength Audio Brick and Cosecant, both of which do Asynch USB implementations.  For preamps, I think that Jolida or BAT (with matching amps) would be a good fit, depending on if you want romantic or vigorous presentations.

[ted_b]

Tyson, I like tubes too, but remember that the Revs LOVE power.  My recommendation would be tubed front ends (source and/or pre) but neutral-to-warm ss amps that produce 500W +.  The incredible dynamic capability of the Revs require some good current.

[Tyson]

I've only heard 2 SS amps in my time that I'd be able to live with long them - the audio-gd C1 (which I just sold because I'm in a tubed system now), and the Odyssey amps.  For source or preamp, tubes all the way!

Of course, if you have the $$, the VTL monster tube amps would probably be the ultimate for speakers like these.

[lonewolfny42]

The Revelations need BIG POWER.....trust me....I've heard them a few times....tube amps won't cut it.

When you get a speaker with such high resolution, headroom and dynamic capability, most tube amplifiers will be a limiting factor one way or another.

[DeadFan]

Hi All.
Thanks for the response. Ted, sorry I didn't look for your PM. Not used to people responding directly.

 Guess what, 4 others have done the same. They have given their private thoughts on some brands and models and I very much appreciate it being done confidentially. I am not into slagging products publicly and lets face it, audio often gets back to personal preference. The encouraging words towards various products is a different matter and I am researching (as time permits) some of the products recommended.

Ted, I don't know how you find the energy to make the number of posts you do. Please don't overdo it. I find making longish posts daunting. (being worlds 2nd slowest typist doesn't help)
I will look forward to your review on the Zodiac when you have time.
Your reasoning on switching to the Modwrights make sense. As it happens I have been considering similar source and pre-amp products as yourself, so maybe the same principal will apply to my amp purchase. As a matter of interest are the Spectron's dual voltage, as I need 240 volt for Australia.

Tyson
As "the wolf" and Ted have reported, all Bob Smith speakers love power. Also I have read that amps push tubes hard and being in Australia has its drawbacks for service follow up on some esoteric type brands. So I'm not keen (but am open minded) on tubes in an amp. Pre-amp and source are a different matter. I have a very open mind re tube or SS there.

To those that PM'd me I'll respond as quickly as I can.

Graham

[DeadFan]

Chris.

You seem to be one of the resident experts on the AC web features, why can't I use the smiley/bold/underlined type features available. Gobbledygook comes up when I press them.

Graham

[lonewolfny42]

Hello Graham...

Expert....Gobbledygook....don't know about that...

As for the smiley /bold/underlined type features available....maybe...Clear Your Browser's Cache....sometimes that has an effect.

http://www.wikihow.com/Clear-Your-Browser%27s-Cache

[lonewolfny42]

Graham....

Since you are in Australia, I'd stick with an amp that can be sold and serviced there...to avoid any future problems....hey, you never know.

[bhobba]

You mentioned using air freight for transport, is that still viable with the Rev's being so heavy or should I look at sea transport.

I have ben told sea transport is a whole new set of headaches and best avoided.  Evren though it is more expensive it is what I would use.

A DAC with an inbuilt pre-amp would be a great cost saver but I read of mixed reports whe not using a dedicated pre-amp. I would take some convincing that doing so would't compromise the sound. The Modwright dealer in Australia has highly recommended a real "jack of all trades" type product, the Bladelius Embla. It is a Swedish company and combines a DAC, pre-amp, and flash memory (harddrive) system and at $10000-$13000 it would want to be pretty good. I must admit it has received reasonable reviews.

I have recently heard the latest prototype PDX.  Take my word for it, it is up there with the best at any price.  For example it was recently judged to be better than a DAC that is described thus:
'But let me say the things a beast ! I’ve spent time with a full DCS stack and I can tell you the Connor24 smacks it down simple as that. The 24 is a DCS stack with a velvet glove.'

This is one serious DAC 100% for sure.  And it is much cheaper than the type of money you are talking about at between $3-4K including a pre amp with exceptionally high end parts like Duelund capacitors that are simply the best.  I really do suggest you take a trip up to the Gold Coast and visit Mike Lenehan.  He can also advise on amps as well.  Although personally I would get either two Cherry amps or two 500W Van Alstine amps and bi-amp them.  That will give you the grunt you need and both are more than good enough in quality terms IMHO.  The small cost of making this trip will IMHO be recouped many times over in what you will save.

Thanks
Bill

[Wind Chaser]

Depends on what you can afford... digital amps are relatively cheap but regardless of power output, will they supply enough current and drive in those watts?