[turkey]

Hmmm....let's see, the first CD player came out in 1979, CD players stayed pretty much low end until maybe 1992, about the time when Frank started making DAC (good stuff) by the way....

My first CD player was a Sony D-50 Discman, which came out in 1984. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discman)

It was immediately better than any turntable I had heard, including some very expensive stuff at various "high-end" dealers. I later bought a CD player Frank had recommended (a Maggotbox). He was modding them with new output sections and improved brickwall filters, but they also had good oversampling DAC chipsets and good mechanical bits.

There _were_ some early CDs that weren't done very well, but I had from the start been buying Telarc CDs and they showed that CD was a huge improvement over LPs.

manufacturers struggled to make digital to sound like vinyl......

Luckily, I never bought anything from such manufacturers.

Frank said "This beauty finally probably makes vinyl obsolete." See the word "probably" but not quite. Not knocking Frank in any way, I am the proud owner of

What he originally said is that this DAC makes vinyl guys obsolete.

So what are you talking about? "pops and clicks" again?

High levels of distortion, ever-changing phase relationships due to various low end content, including arm and 'table resonances. Channel separation of only 30 dB or so. Limited dynamic range. Limited FR.

Plus, pops, ticks, and various other surface noise. (Not a small issue, since these things happen just during normal use. In contrast, I have CDs that are now 26 years old and they sound the same as when I first got them.)

Then there is the constant fuss of cleaning records, cartridges that wear out within months, having to get up every 20 minutes or so to flip sides. Liquids, goops, antistatic brushes, nostrums and preparations.

[turkey]

If you absolutely, positively cannot stand the idea of having a silicon transistor in your signal path, then, true, vinyl will give you a way to avoid that problem.

Too bad that most recordings have passed through lots of transistors.

[turkey]

intangible emotional involvement into the musical performance that has until now been only reserved to vinyl.

Oh, puh-leeze. Now pull the other one...

[martyo]

The first CD player came out in 1979???????

Did I miss something?  I thought it was around October of 1982?   

Sony CDP-101  October 1, 1982.

[turkey]

Sony CDP-101  October 1, 1982.

I was just reading some comments about this. Arny Krueger mentioned he paid over $900 for one of these when it first came out.

[geezer]

If you like digital, do digital; if analogue, do analogue. what's the point of evangelizing for your preference?

[avahifi]

I like realistic musical playback.  I am not in bed with either digital or analog sources, I just want the music.

Thus we work on both mediums, building phono cartridges (the Longhorn), great RIAA phono preamp circuits, and great DACs.

As we are able to improve all, the results musically converge.  How about that!

It is pretty amazing that records sound as good as they do.  If you look at the size of the source information in the record groove as compared to the size of the detection device, the stylus, it is very much like trying to read Braille with a sledgehammer.  Its a wonder it works at all.

In any event, I could care less which technology end up being universally considered to be the best, I only want the best music.  I am not a cult like slave to one medium or the other.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[rcag_ils]

turkey, are you talking to yourself? Or you didn't read before you write/type?

[jrtrent]

What I am suggesting is that our new Vision Hybrid DAC will deliver the intangible emotional involvement into the musical performance that has until now been only reserved to vinyl.

I agree with Frank.  While I have a few cd's, they don't get much play; I often go months at a time never playing a cd at home or even having a cd player in the system.  I've heard several higher end cd players both at dealers' shops and in my own home, and nothing I've heard compares favorably with a good turntable.

For some of us, records might continue to be the best choice no matter how good digital sources get.  I listen mostly to classical music.  Prices are low, used classical records tend to be in pretty good shape, and there remains a huge range of music available at local used record stores and hifi shops.  Maybe my purchases don't support current artists, but they still support local businesses.  Though I downsized my collection considerably when moving to an apartment a few years ago, and continue weeding things out on occasion, I currently have about 1600 lp's and pick up maybe another 150 titles per year.  I like the size of the jackets, the cover art, and the education and insight into the music, recording process, artists, etc., that is  contained in the liner notes.  It's great that AVA continues to support all sources with quality products.

[Delta Wave]

As far as the vinyl's "pops and clicks" argument, it's probably one of the oldest come-back line from the CD guys. When you go to a live concert, is the environment at the concert hall, or stadium totally dead silent? NO. Do you still enjoy the music and performance? YES. Would you still enjoy the concert when the people sitting behind you just keep talking and would not shut up? Probably not, or maybe. So if the "pops and clicks" on the vinyl are not excessive (I am sure the vinyl guys wouldn't have any of those), vinyl records are still more enjoyable than CD with the properly set up equipment. If you have excessive "pops and clicks" on your record, then it's a bad record, and should be thrown away.

Whatever that makes you happy, that's all it counts. I've handled records for years no differently than anyone else, except maybe more carefully than some, and I've had no problem. So the vinyl manufacturing and transportation process must have worked. I don't do stupid things like leaving vinyl records out in the sun on a hot day, just clean them and play them. If that bothers you, then vinyl is not for you, and it has nothing to do with the musical quality between the two.

When I get lazy, that's when I put the CDs in, and listen to them through the Ultra DAC, or the Omega DAC, I bought two DACs, just so I can hear the differences. They are good, but nowhere near to make my vinyl obsolete. I still find listening to vinyl records more satisfying. Don't get me wrong, Frank's DACs do make CD sound better, but vinyl records just have better musical quality, even I have to take them in and out the jackets, clean them, get up every 20 min or so to flip them over. I don't have that many warpped records, some people have records from the 1940's and they still play just fine.

Basically, you guys are just saying, "My DAC make your vinyl records obsolete, because I am too lazy to clean my records, too lazy to adjust my record player, or I am just too busy." Well think about it, what does it have anything to do with musical quality?

PS, I have not listened to Frank's latest DAC, but all I am saying is for it to make vinyl records obsolete is not likely. Music is analog.

I don't know, I must be doing something right because "pops & clicks" are few and far between on my system sans a few rare, well-worn records. And yes, over half of my vinyl collection is almost twice as old as me. I would much rather sit through a minuscule pop than a digital error. They're the worst... an inorganic sound not meant for the human ears, my brain can't process that noise, it's terrible.

With vinyl, all you have to overcome are mechanical issues (even the electronic signal is mechanically generated)... simple. With digital there is an insurmountable cornucopia of variables thrown into the mix.   

Sorry to get off topic, Congratulations Mr. Frank, I read it a few days ago. I've been lusting over your pre's for a while now... soon.