[jtwrace]

Gloss Red

[turkey]

Why is that?  He's simply saying that HE hasn't heard a speaker that costs < $50k that is better.  Right?

Correct.

[sts9fan]

Right, but I am pretty sure you could get Earl to build you a custom one off beast with 21" waveguides etc.  I stand by my statement. 

[jtwrace]

Right, but I am pretty sure you could get Earl to build you a custom one off beast with 21" waveguides etc.  I stand by my statement.

His statement (how I took it) was speakers that are currently made.  Not going to Dr. Geddes and dumping $50k in his lap and asking for the "best" that he can build.  I would go out on a limb and say that Dr. Geddes would say that the Summa is 95% the best that he can build. 

Maybe?   

[sts9fan]

That's ridiculous

I would go out on a limb and say that Dr. Geddes would say that the Summa is 95% the best that he can build. 

I would say "Earl,  I want 100%"

Anyway, I digress...

[jtwrace]

That's ridiculous

I would say "Earl,  I want 100%"

Anyway, I digress...

Oops.  I left out an important part though.  The best that Dr. Geddes can build and keep the prices reasonable. 

Also, what speaker have YOU heard that's < $50k that you would prefer? 
Seriously.

[cujobob]

In a perfect room, there are better speakers than the Summa probably...but in a typical room, I think these CD designs are pretty amazing.

And Earl can certainly build out a much better speaker than the Summa...maybe.  He mentions on his forum about various ideas he has...active crossover, bigger waveguide (previously he's said that 18" should be the best), custom drivers of his own design, eliptical OS...in theory, these could be big improvements, hard to say currently how audible of an improvement they would be.

These designs still offer amazing sound quality.  I wouldn't take a Salk HT2 or HT3 over my Abbeys...for $4000, I don't know a speaker I'd prefer.

[rajacat]

Maybe he should offer his old MDF kits at the original price as an option.

[JohnR]

I am a little slow. What does this mean?

Cheers,

James

Well, as Jason said, surprise, but x2 to one-up him But... still, it does seem curious to raise prices to stop people buying your product. Not criticising, just... surprised.

[turkey]

That's ridiculous

I would say "Earl,  I want 100%"

Anyway, I digress...

I am very, very happy with my Nathans.

They're the first pair Earl built, so they're unique. I suppose I might trade them for a pair of Abbeys or Summas. Or I might not. Earl did me a big favor by selling them to me, especially at the price I paid.

My Nathans are probably the best purchase I have ever made in terms of audio gear, and they changed my entire outlook on home audio.

I see all these megabuck speakers in the magazines, and I've heard some of them at shows, dealers, and people's houses. None of them hold a candle to my Nathans.

Maybe Earl could make a pair of speakers for $50K that would be fantastic, or maybe not. (It seemed to me that he's been saying that 15" is about optimum for a waveguide and 12" is optimum for the woofer.) They don't exist though, and I was talking about speakers that I've heard.

[turkey]

IMO the price rise would be reasonable if instead offering the speaker as semi kits, they were offered fully assembled and of similar quality to the Salk speakers.

I've heard Salk speakers and the GedLee Nathans sound better. I'll gladly give up fancy veneer for better sound.

I was interested in these speakers but now I've taken them off the list. There are competitive alternatives
at much lower prices especially if you don't mind a little DIY. The Econo Waveguide project has got my attention as well the GR Research V series.

The Econo Waveguide speakers and Danny's speakers are not competitive alternatives.

I like a little DIY but to pay the new prices for a knockdown kit is too much. Now if Dr. Geddes would offer all the parts except the enclosure and especially the waveguides at a reasonable price, I might change my mind.

"The Abbey  has a 12" High Performance 12TBX100 B&C woofer and a 12" waveguide and the same 1" compression driver as the Summa (DE250 B&C)."

The waveguide is OS.

Start building.

[gedlee]

Hi all.  Just saw this.

IS the Summa the "ultimate"?  I don't know.  Does it sound better than any other speaker out there?  Well that's an impossible question to answer.  But I do know this and I stand by this statement, the Summa measures better than any other speaker that I have ever seen.  This is also supported by the Princton University study which found the older Nathan to be the best measured speaker in their test.  Do measurements tell the whole story?  No, not exactly, but they are certainly a minimum requirement.  All researchers in this field have found this.  The speaker that measures better is rated in blind tests as the better sounding.  But when two speakers measure very similar they will still sound different.  This just means that we do not do enough tests or the right tests.  It does not mean that measurements are not a critical factor.  Looking at axial frequency response for example tells you nothing about the sound, and a spec in a table that says 20Hz - 20 kHz tells you even less.

Given this position, I do find very little that I can do to improve on the Summa, and nothing that I can do without custom drivers (which B&C will not do for me because the volume is too low).  So the bottom line here is that I have done all that I can do within the business model that I am forced to live with due to market conditions.

Going back to MDF cabinets would not reduce the price.  It's just as time consuming to use MDF as poly, but it is far inferior.  I do sell baffles with waveguides only, but you have to understand that the waveguide contains ALL of my intellectual property, patents and trade secrets.  So this single part is where all of my value-added is and hence where all of my profit lies.  As pointed out, everything else is just purchased.  So baffles are 1/2 the cost of the entire kit, but then I do get great prices on all the parts, so in the end it is very hard for the end consumer to build the kits any cheaper than what I sell them for.  I do not advertise this because quite honestly its not a very good deal, but it is what I have to do to make this option even remotely attractive to me.

One last thing.  Kits have become a very small part of my business, as I think they should.  I test each speaker that I build and there are things that I know how to do better than can be explained or taught.  So the fact is that you are likely to get a better speaker from me than you can build yourself.  If you want 100% then you certainly do not want to buy a kit.  Bottom line here is that I suspect that kits will go away completely in another year or so.  I do it now only as a courtesy to the few people who want to do this task.

In conclusion I will say this - If you can find a better speaker than mine for the money, then buy it.

[rajacat]

I've heard Salk speakers and the GedLee Nathans sound better. I'll gladly give up fancy veneer for better sound.

The Econo Waveguide speakers and Danny's speakers are not competitive alternatives.

"The Abbey  has a 12" High Performance 12TBX100 B&C woofer and a 12" waveguide and the same 1" compression driver as the Summa (DE250 B&C)."

The waveguide is OS.

Start building.

How do you know that your Nathans sound better than "the best" of the Econo Wave options. Have you heard them all? Same with the GR Research V series. I realize that you now have the Nathans so I'm sure that you'll be pumping them and dissing the competitors, but without full knowledge it's just hot air IMO.

I'm sure that your Nathans sound great but now I'm interested in pursuing other options. The GR V series especially the V1 and the Super Vs have been very well received. As you know you'll need some subs for your Nathans. That will be more $$$. The V1 includes 2 pairs of 12" OB servo subs so extra money is not required for them to sound flat down to 20hz or so.

Alternatively, I can do the Econo Wave Delux and assemble them with the very best parts for $500 using MDF however I'd probably go with solid hardwood with perhaps a constrained layer sandwiched in between two layers. I'd need subs too of course. Oh well....musings on a freezing day in the NW. I'm in no rush. My present speakers actually sound very good.

[cloudbaseracer]

Oops.  I left out an important part though.  The best that Dr. Geddes can build and keep the prices reasonable. 

Also, what speaker have YOU heard that's < $50k that you would prefer? 
Seriously.

Yes, this would be an interesting list.  What have people heard that they think is superior to the Abbey or Summa at a price up to 50k?

Cheers,

James

[turkey]

How do you know that your Nathans sound better than "the best" of the Econo Wave options. Have you heard them all? Same with the GR Research V series. I realize that you now have the Nathans so I'm sure that you'll be pumping them and dissing the competitors, but without full knowledge it's just hot air IMO.

I've seen the Econo Waves discussed in various places and they're just not in the same league as the speakers Earl designs. As for GR Research, let's just say I'm not satisfied with the technical skills of the designer.

received. As you know you'll need some subs for your Nathans. That will be more $$$. The V1 includes 2 pairs of 12" OB servo subs so extra money is not required for them to sound flat down to 20hz or so.

I've already got subs. There's nothing worth listening to below about 40 Hz in most recordings, and even if there were you're not going to do more than make flatulent noises with a few 12" OB servo subs that you can't even locate in the best places in the room for them.

BTW, my 3 subs cost me about $400. I'm sure you'll get a big laugh out of that.

Alternatively, I can do the Econo Wave Delux and assemble them with the very best parts for $500 using MDF however I'd probably go with solid hardwood with perhaps a constrained layer sandwiched in between two layers. I'd need subs too of course.

On the other hand, you could just pay Earl to do it properly.

I feel the Linkwitz Orions are done pretty well. I prefer the Nathans, but I can see why people like the Orions too. (I suspect the Plutos are also respectable.) Harman has some reasonable speakers in their Revel line, with Infinity being good budget speakers. Paul Barton is doing some decent things at the lower price levels.

Then there's a ton of dreck out there.

[cujobob]

How do you know that your Nathans sound better than "the best" of the Econo Wave options. Have you heard them all? Same with the GR Research V series. I realize that you now have the Nathans so I'm sure that you'll be pumping them and dissing the competitors, but without full knowledge it's just hot air IMO.

I'm sure that your Nathans sound great but now I'm interested in pursuing other options. The GR V series especially the V1 and the Super Vs have been very well received. As you know you'll need some subs for your Nathans. That will be more $$$. The V1 includes 2 pairs of 12" OB servo subs so extra money is not required for them to sound flat down to 20hz or so.

Alternatively, I can do the Econo Wave Delux and assemble them with the very best parts for $500 using MDF however I'd probably go with solid hardwood with perhaps a constrained layer sandwiched in between two layers. I'd need subs too of course. Oh well....musings on a freezing day in the NW. I'm in no rush. My present speakers actually sound very good.

Even the econowave deluxe is a compromised version of what Earl is doing in his speakers.  Excellent value?  Absolutely, but not the same.

The V Series do not have the directivity control that Earl's designs have, I'm sure they sound excellent but they ignore some of the points this design takes into account.  Personally, I love the OB servo subs.

[TRADERXFAN]

you're not going to do more than make flatulent noises with a few 12" OB servo subs that you can't even locate in the best places in the room for them.

You are sadly mistaken. This comment about the ob servo subs is COMPLETELY false. I own them. And feel they pair excellent with the Abbey's (and so does TomS...) There is nothing REMOTELY flatulent about the bass from an ob servo sub.

[TRADERXFAN]

If you had to have full range to be apples to apples, you could do what many do, and port it. Geddes sees that as a compromise, but you could make them "full range" with a port.... the original summa had one, but he changed that for what he determined to be a more optimum approach.

[lord dubious]

But they are certainly not for everyone, and have their own idiosyncracies.

Hi Anand
Hoping you could explain what you mean.  Just trying to learn more.
Thanks

[gainphile2]

I've seen the Econo Waves discussed in various places and they're just not in the same league as the speakers Earl designs.

Do you have any data to support that claim?

A while back Dr. Geddes performed measurement of Econowave and ESP12 (Abbey?). I'll let the data speak for themselves.

ECONOWAVE:



ESP12 (ABBEY?)




I have neither of the speakers.