[turkey]

Maybe Atma-Sphere could supply some M-60's.   

Or he could just get something good.

[sts9fan]

jtwrace:  Whats your experience with the M-60s?

[Tyson]

  WOW Tyson!

Does this mean that you will be getting some Abbey's?

Nope.  As good as they are, they are still box speakers, and thus would not work well in my room.

[jtwrace]

jtwrace:  Whats your experience with the M-60s?

zilch

[Bear]

thanks, Ed.

[cloudbaseracer]

Well to take things in the other direction from multiple subs.......

I notice several of you guys are having great luck with tube amplifiers, specifically the Atma-Sphere.  Is there anything that is particularly unique (maybe not the best word) about the Abbey's that seem to sound better with tube gear?  I realize Dr. Geddes uses a Pioneer receiver which is clearly not tubed.  Do the tubes tend to roll-off the top end and soften an inherent brightness? 

Mind you, I am not sure of all of the things tubes are "supposed" to do to the sound of speakers but there must be something to this desired synergy?

Cheers,

James
 

[nicksgem10s]

I have not heard the Abbey speakers but have heard the Summa speakers which are a very similar design.

I would definitely classify the sound of the speaker as neutral.  They are very balanced top to bottom and do not need to soften the highs.

Tubes vs solid state seems to be more a matter or what gets you involved in the music.

The Geddes speakers have helped prove to me how important the loudspeakers (and room) are in the overall sound of the system.

They are the real deal to put it simply.

-Nick

[poseidonsvoice]

Well to take things in the other direction from multiple subs.......

I notice several of you guys are having great luck with tube amplifiers, specifically the Atma-Sphere.  Is there anything that is particularly unique (maybe not the best word) about the Abbey's that seem to sound better with tube gear?  I realize Dr. Geddes uses a Pioneer receiver which is clearly not tubed.  Do the tubes tend to roll-off the top end and soften an inherent brightness? 

Mind you, I am not sure of all of the things tubes are "supposed" to do to the sound of speakers but there must be something to this desired synergy?

Cheers,

James

James,

Okay, let's stop the misinformation/misunderstandings right here!

Tubes just don't come in one flavor. There are multiple different output stage topologies, i.e. single ended, push pull, etc....and of course OTL (output transformer less). Within the heading of single ended and push pull you've got even more derivatives and mentioning them would be going way off topic. But to answer your question, Atmasphere OTL's are not rolled off whatsoever. They have an extremely wide bandwidth, i.e. 2Hz to 75Khz within 1/2 dB. However, it is recommended that they be paired up with loudspeakers that are reasonably sensitive (i.e. no Thiels), have a benign impedance curve, and no strange dips down to 2 or 3 ohms. That rules out a lot of loudspeakers but not all of them. The Abbeys are quite benign, have a minimum impedance of 5.5 to 6 ohms (with a benign phase angle) and are 96dB sensitive. There are also several other loudspeakers that will pair up with the Atmaspheres quite nicely not just the Abbeys.

The reason many users like the Atmaspheres is because they are output transformer less. Designing an OTL is extremely difficult because you cannot use an output transformer to impedance couple to a loudspeaker! Ralph Karsten has been more successful than most, and hence has removed yet another impasse to high end sound. This topic is something that is debatable as there are now a significant number of output transformers that are far more transparent than they used to be even 10 years ago.

But at the end of the day, it is the sound that counts. Atmaspheres have incredible soundstaging, are extremely neutral and dynamic when coupled to the right speaker. The Abbeys are just one of them and it is that quality that makes the Abbey very flexible and user friendly in that regard.

Okay?

Anand.

[Tyson]

Mike let me hear the Abbey's w/the Atma's, but to be honest I preferred the 211 tube monoblocks (18 watts SET!) and his modded MacIntosh to the Atma's.  Here's the deal, if you have ANY impedance variations, it will result in Frequency Response changes.  As the Impedance rises or drops, so will the OTL driven frequency response rise and fall.  I've only heard the Atma's sound great in one setup, the AudioKenesis, and that's probably because Duke specifically designed his speakers to work well with OTL's.  The vast majority of speakers will have serious problems when coupled to this type of amp. 

[poseidonsvoice]

Mike let me hear the Abbey's w/the Atma's, but to be honest I preferred the 211 tube monoblocks (18 watts SET!) and his modded MacIntosh to the Atma's.  Here's the deal, if you have ANY impedance variations, it will result in Frequency Response changes.  As the Impedance rises or drops, so will the OTL driven frequency response rise and fall.  I've only heard the Atma's sound great in one setup, the AudioKenesis, and that's probably because Duke specifically designed his speakers to work well with OTL's.  The vast majority of speakers will have serious problems when coupled to this type of amp.

True. And in the case of the Abbey, a simple LCR trap is all that is needed to flatten out the curve - which is what Duke does with his AK speakers, definitely not rocket science. In fact Mike Galusha was looking into this about a year back, but I bet he never got to it since he'd rather listen to the Abbey than design!

Anand.

[jtwrace]

Mike let me hear the Abbey's w/the Atma's, but to be honest I preferred the 211 tube monoblocks (18 watts SET!) and his modded MacIntosh to the Atma's.  Here's the deal, if you have ANY impedance variations, it will result in Frequency Response changes.  As the Impedance rises or drops, so will the OTL driven frequency response rise and fall.  I've only heard the Atma's sound great in one setup, the AudioKenesis, and that's probably because Duke specifically designed his speakers to work well with OTL's.  The vast majority of speakers will have serious problems when coupled to this type of amp.

In your opinion how would high power Class A SS do with the GedLee speakers?

[Tyson]

Hmm, good question!  I think pretty well, actually!  I am not an SS kinda guy, but if you are, then I don't think the speakers will be the bottleneck, regardless of what SS amp you put in front of them.  I'm speculating here, but I imagine that the dynamics will be even better, but imaging might not be as holographic.

[TomS]

In your opinion how would high power Class A SS do with the GedLee speakers?

I've used the DIY Firstwatt F5 which is class A but not high power.  For the most part, it sounds great but I suspect it was running out of steam at some point.  I do prefer the M60's to the F5, which itself is no slouch.  Not because it is a tube amp, because it really doesn't sound like tubes in the typical ways.  I also tried the DIY Firstwatt F4's in mono (100 w class A) and felt like they softened the edges a bit too much for my taste compared to the F5 and M60's.  The big Claytons certainly should have no problems but it seems like overkill to me.

[turkey]

The reason many users like the Atmaspheres is because they are output transformer less.

Pioneer receivers are OTL too.

"If amplifiers A and B both have flat frequency response, low noise floor, reasonably low distortion, high input impedance, low output impedance, and are not clipped, they will be indistinguishable in sound at matched levels no matter what’s inside them."

Toob amps almost never have a low output impedance, so they act as tone controls. Some people like the resulting sound effects, others prefer a more neutral presentation.

[cloudbaseracer]

Pioneer receivers are OTL too.

"If amplifiers A and B both have flat frequency response, low noise floor, reasonably low distortion, high input impedance, low output impedance, and are not clipped, they will be indistinguishable in sound at matched levels no matter what’s inside them."

Toob amps almost never have a low output impedance, so they act as tone controls. Some people like the resulting sound effects, others prefer a more neutral presentation.

Turkey,

Who are you quoting? 

Cheers,

James

[JohnR]

Peter Aczel.

[cmryan21]

Guys, is there any way to use an Abbey's as a center channel in an ht setup without using an acoustically transparent screen? My screen is 27" from the floor. I'm assuming Dr. Geddes has never made a horizontal version of any of his speakers.

[Tyson]

I've come to this conclusion - when people say they cannot hear the difference between amps, I believe them!

[turkey]

I've come to this conclusion - when people say they cannot hear the difference between amps, I believe them!

That's a rather ad hominem argument...

I used to think I heard a big difference between amps, but when it came time to "put my money where my mouth is," so to speak, I couldn't reliably identify one amp from another. Some of my friends, a couple of our wives, and one of their 20-something kids couldn't do it either.

When faced with something like this, you can either dismiss it and keep on going as you were, or you can change your thinking. I chose to change my thinking.

So now I concentrate on the important things: speakers, listening room, and recordings.

(I'm strongly considering building another amp soon, maybe a Pass design, or Ball, Dean, or Elliot. It will be a lot of fun to play with. However, I'm not going to be doing it because it will sound any better, but because it will be a fun project.)

[JoshK]

Dr. Geddes has said before a few times that lack of crossover distortion is one of the key elements he looks for in an amp assuming an otherwise competent design.  It so happens that the Pioneer receiver is one of the few budget amps that meets this criteria.  Class A amps (either SS or tube) are inherently crossover distortion free.

CD is hard to measure but it is audible.  Most SS amps are Class A/B and pay little attention to crossover distortion.  I feel that this may be the reason why so many object to SS amps.  I prefer tube amps but not all, only good ones.  Then again, I have no problem with good SS amps, there are just not that many I've come across IMO. 

I think there is also the spectrum of the harmonic distortion that is largely ignored but more important IMO than the level of HD distortion assuming we are not talking about gross (>3%) distortion.  I'd take an amp with say 1% 2nd Harmonic distortion and immeasurable upper harmonics over an amp with neglible 2nd HD but trace amounts of 5th HD.   The later has much better specs but yet its HD is much more audible than the first.   THD is a useless measure because it doesn't take into account this feature of how we hear.

Dr. Geddes has published research that basically proves the above point, but in his case he wasn't comparing amps but distorted signals played back with headphones.