[*Scotty*]

turkey,you might be interested in doing a simple experiment. Build two sets of ICs. The first set should be constructed out of 26ga. single strand magnet wire. You might loosely twist them together to make handling them easier. The second set should be constructed 12ga or 14ga wire with a strand count of 128 or 256. These should also be a twisted pair geometry about 1 twist per 2 inches. The hope is that you might be able to consistently hear a difference between to the two widely different construction geometries and the different LCR measurements between the two cables. If you can hear the difference between the two cables,then you should build a second set of cables,the magnet wire set would be easiest and compare the sound the two cables. Hopefully you might hear a difference between the first set which has been use for a couple of weeks and the set you just made.
You could report back on the results of your experiments.
Scotty

[*Scotty*]

Wayner,I agree that it is easier to focus on the music with your eyes closed. Our dominant sense is sight and it is all to easy to be distracted by what we see to the exclusion of what we should hear.
When I sold stereo gear back in the 70's I would always try to get the the prospective client to close their eyes while listening to the music on the systems. When they would do this it was easier for them to focus on how the system sounded. Hopefully they liked sound of what their budget would allow them to buy. The nice thing was that when the stereo system was delivered to their home it always sounded much better than it did in the store.
Scotty

[turkey]

turkey,you might be interested in doing a simple experiment. Build two sets of ICs. The first set should be constructed out of 26ga. single strand magnet wire. You might loosely twist them together to make handling them easier. The second set should be constructed 12ga or 14ga wire with a strand count of 128 or 256. These should also be a twisted pair geometry about 1 twist per 2 inches. The hope is that you might be able to consistently hear a difference between to the two widely different construction geometries and the different LCR measurements between the two cables. If you can hear the difference between the two cables,then you should build a second set of cables,the magnet wire set would be easiest and compare the sound the two cables. Hopefully you might hear a difference between the first set which has been use for a couple of weeks and the set you just made.
You could report back on the results of your experiments.

Why twisted pair? It's an unbalanced connection.

I've done tests of wire a couple of times now. Once about 30 year ago, and once about 8 years ago. We did no better than random chance at picking out which wire was which.

I'll buy 2 patch cords at Radio Shack and use one and not the other. Then I'll have my wife plug in one of the sets without my knowing which and I'll see if I hear any difference. I'll repeat it a few times and see what happens.

You say I should let one pair "break-in" for 2 weeks?

[*Scotty*]

I would like to "front load" the experiment with the two very different cable geometries and construction types to maximize the chances of your hearing a difference. In the case to the two different cable geometries there is at least a measurable difference in LCR parameters and their real world performance with electrical signals to base the possibility of your hearing a difference on. In the second case of cable break in this is a phenomena which to my knowledge isn't currently measurable. The first test with two very different cables would serve to establish a threshold of detection hearing wise. If you can't detect the difference between the two cables with very different geometries then it is unlikely you will hear any difference between two identical cables regardless of their break in condition. 
Scotty

[turkey]

I would like to "front load" the experiment with the two very different cable geometries and construction types to maximize the chances of your hearing a difference. In the case to the two different cable geometries there is at least a measurable difference in LCR parameters and their real world performance with electrical signals to base the possibility of your hearing a difference on. In the second case of cable break in this is a phenomena which to my knowledge isn't currently measurable. The first test with two very different cables would serve to establish a threshold of detection hearing wise. If you can't detect the difference between the two cables with very different geometries then it is unlikely you will hear any difference between two identical cables regardless of their break in condition. 
Scotty

I'm not really that interested in comparing wires. It's boring.

It is, of course, possible to create wire that sounds different by being abnormal in L, R, or C. I don't think that is in dispute. I don't know whether the two wires you propose differ in these areas enough to be audibly different or not. I don't really care, to tell you the truth.

I stick with coax of reasonably low capacitance. I have heard what OmegaMikro unshielded wire does to a system and I don't care to inject large amounts of garbage into mine.

I'm willing to test break-in, but that's as far as I go. I consider the wire issue to be resolved, and I don't need to establish my hearing acuity. I've done enough tests with other people to show that I'm normal in that respect.


 

[Wayner]

Bluejeans cable, 12pf per foot. Awesome coax!

Wayner

[*Scotty*]

The reason I chose those two cable geometries is that they are in common usage in the audiophile community and people within that population would agree that they sound different from one another. What defines an abnormal geometry when it comes to audio ICs is something I can't answer. The pundits say that DC to light bandwidth is not necessary in a cable carrying audio band signals. I think the two examples I gave would fall into the realm of adequate for audio signal transmission. I would think the chance to learn something new about yourself and your system would be compelling enough to get you try the experiment.
The construction phase of the cables would take longer than the listening test session. You stick the cables in and you hear a difference or you don't. The differences between the two should easily be gross enough in nature that no SBT or DBT testing is necessary.
If you are not interested in the cable geometry experiment that's cool,frankly I suspect that if you do the break in test with couple a Shack patch cords you may not hear any difference. You may have a chance if you system resolution has improved compared to what it was 8 years ago. If it is about the same then you are effectively doing the same experiment over and expecting a different outcome and you know what
Einstein said about that kind of behavior.
Scotty

[AKA KURO]

When it comes to stereos, I think they sound different every day

Wayner, a truly great system always sounds good.  With a mediocre system, you may have to talk yourself into it from day to day.  Have a nice day. 

[face]

I'll buy 2 patch cords at Radio Shack and use one and not the other. Then I'll have my wife plug in one of the sets without my knowing which and I'll see if I hear any difference. I'll repeat it a few times and see what happens.

Well, when you compare crap to crap, what else would you expect?

[werd]

I don't trust my hearing when it comes to things like this. I know I can be fooled or mistaken. I require more proof than that - like the results of controlled tests.

controlled tests like this no doubt


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn7-JZq0Yxs

go past the crap at the beginning and move up around 20secs or so....

[AKA KURO]

Well, when you compare crap to crap, what else would you expect

Good point, face.  A few posters here who come from a certain owner's circle feel that the point of this hobby is to spend as little as possible and then to sneer at those who would rather make an investment in truly high-end gear. They never get beyond a certain level of crappy mid-fi and cannot understand that others hear music differently from each item they place in the chain, including cables.  When someone can finally achieve a truly high resolution system, then magic begins to occur that cannot be heard with mid-fi components, and especially with lo-fi junk such as Shack patch cords and speaker wire from Anti-Cable, Blue Jean and even recommended from Home Depot of all places!   

[face]

Good point, face.  A few posters here who come from a certain owner's circle feel that the point of this hobby is to spend as little as possible and then to sneer at those who would rather make an investment in truly high-end gear.

It's called reverse snobbery.

When someone can finally achieve a truly high resolution system, then magic begins to occur that cannot be heard with mid-fi components, and especially with lo-fi junk such as Shack patch cords and speaker wire from Anti-Cable, Blue Jean and even recommended from Home Depot of all places!   

IMO, BJC's Canare 4S11 is a great cable, as long as long as you avoid BJC's crappy connectors.  As for the other cables mentioned, they're great if you like colored sound or if you don't mind buying new cable every few years due to oxidation.   

[AKA KURO]

It's called reverse snobbery

Yes, thankyou.  It's comes from being told the "establishment" can be beaten by finding cheaper alternatives to everything, so the cheaper the price, the "better" the product, the more glorious the triumph.   Sorry if I criticized a BJC in your system--I have not heard them, just had to counter Wayner, who enjoys search and destroy missions on certain topics such as these.     

[wywires]

Very well said Mr. KURO!

[jtwrace]

I have not heard them, just had to counter Wayner, who enjoys search and destroy missions on certain topics such as these.   

With 9 posts on this forum how would you know this?  Just curious.

[Wind Chaser]

Some people lurk for years before posting.

[face]

With 9 posts on this forum how would you know this?  Just curious.

If post count has a direct correlation with audio knowledge, we're in trouble. 

[Bob in St. Louis]

That would make me one of the smartest folks around here. 

Although, I do think one should temper their comments until they've earned the right to poke at respected members like Wayner.
just sayin'

Bob

[lcrim]

Stay on topic please. 
This thread is getting personal and unfortunately isn't offering any particularly novel insights.

[wywires]

If post count has a direct correlation with audio knowledge, we're in trouble. 

Are you kidding?