[drab]

I suspect what Frank was getting at is that mpg increases are important in proportion to what mpg you're starting with.  10 mpg increase from 20 mpg to 30 mpg is a 50% efficiency boost which will mean your fuel for a particular distance will cost 2/3 what it used to.  10 mpg increase from 40-50mpg is a 25% efficiency increase, and fuel will then cost 4/5 what it used to for a particular distance.  This can be misleading if you're not thinking proportionately already. 

~Ben

I get that. Again, for me, it's about steering away from oil dependency. I realize that noone wants to give up their big comfortable high performing car and go straight to a small short range electric vehicle. but if you continually improve efficiency over a period of years the drop off is less drastic. I would think that eventually you could have the best of both worlds.

High-end audio systems, however, are a perfectly reasonable expenditure of excess wealth, and think of how much fuel you save by staying at home.   

Yes, however I'm going into the tube section to explain to the SET guys that they are spending $2,000 per watt when I can get them for a dollar each!

[sts9fan]

Speaking of burning other fuels, I was in Victoria, BC, Canada recently and there were quite a few vehicles running on biodiesel. The streets smell like french fries.

Biodiesel and WVO (waste veggie oil) are not the same thing.  This is a common misconception.  Biodiesel is a methyl ester made from an oil such as soybean, palm or rapeseed.  Waste oil is just filtered and held in a secondary tank until it warms.  I find WVO to more of a personal solution then a global but to each their own.  Biodiesel does have a different smell but not of fried food.  I personally am not sure bio is the way to go but its good to have options and running 50-80% bio in my tank makes her run real smooooth.  Biodiesel has a higher lubricity then regular diesel. 

[pjchappy]

+1.  And, your car would put out less pollution.  I replaced a PT Cruiser with a Prius for a net gain of 30mpg. 

Your car may be putting out less pollution, but you could run that PT Cruiser forever and not put out as much pollution emitted and energy used in the full process of mining, manufacturing, shipping, etc. of just the batteries in the Prius.

As others have said, it is/should be more of an issue re oil dependance than that of going "green."  If you disagree, you should look into it yourself.


Paul

[HAL]

Some fun with math.

In my case over the last 4 years owning the Honda Hybrid, in 60000 miles of driving my average mpg went from 22mpg to about 40mpg.  If I just use these numbers, the amount of gas not used is 307 gallons per year or a total of 1228 gallons (if a barrel is 55 gallons, about 22 barrels).  The cost savings make up for the cost premium of the Civic Hybrid over the stock Civic that year.  After this point, it is pure gas savings.   I am using an average gallon at $2.75 which is low compared to the time when it hit nearly $4/gallon.

If I count on a battery replacement at 8 years, the gas savings is still over the cost of the new part at $2800 ( $3377 for gas savings).  I'm still liking the math! 

[drab]

Your car may be putting out less pollution, but you could run that PT Cruiser forever and not put out as much pollution emitted and energy used in the full process of mining, manufacturing, shipping, etc. of just the batteries in the Prius.

As others have said, it is/should be more of an issue re oil dependance than that of going "green."  If you disagree, you should look into it yourself.


Paul

I think you are both right. Your points are valid of course but I also know that I would rather be behind a Prius on my bicycle than a PT Cruiser. 

[jackman]

I think you are both right. Your points are valid of course but I also know that I would rather be behind a Prius on my bicycle than a PT Cruiser. 

You could probably get a better draft off a PT cruiser - on a bike.  I'd still rather draft behind a truck or at least a fat guy on a bike.  Unfortunately, I'm usually the guy people look forward to drafting. 

[genjamon]

Your car may be putting out less pollution, but you could run that PT Cruiser forever and not put out as much pollution emitted and energy used in the full process of mining, manufacturing, shipping, etc. of just the batteries in the Prius.

As others have said, it is/should be more of an issue re oil dependance than that of going "green."  If you disagree, you should look into it yourself.


Paul

Can you point to a life cycle assessment of the supply chain for Prius or similar batteries?  I haven't heard of one yet, but I'm not "in" the LCA camp per se and would be interested to take a closer look.

Ben

[turkey]

It's a big deal to me. To me it's not just a matter of money. It's a matter of conservation and dependence on foreign oil. If everyone in the U.S. improved their mileage by 10 mpg, we could completely eliminate the need for oil imported from the Persian Gulf. Now granted I would prefer all electric but improving mileage is a good start.

I mentioned earlier that I'm not 100% convinced we are best served by not importing oil. Why not use up their oil instead of ours?

As for all-electric vehicles, I don't think we'd gain much in many areas because their electricity is supplied by coal-fired plants.

What I would really like to see is for the US to start building modern nuclear plants, and perhaps even lots of small ones rather than few large ones.

I don't think it's a good idea to build more nuclear plants like we have already. I also wonder whether maybe we could turn all nuclear plants over to the Navy so they could run them. They've got a good track record in this respect.

[turkey]

I strongly disagree with the idea that auto companies are in bed with the oil companies.  If that were true there wouldn't be such rapid changes in buyers' interest (and the resulting scramble to build more fuel-efficient cars ) every time we have an oil crisis.  The American market is easily influenced, and manufacturers thrive by gauging that interest, whether it is Play Stations, Steal-Your-Bucks coffee, Blows Audio, or Hummers.

I thought that the US automakers originally pushed trucks because they were cheaper to make since they didn't have as stringent safety standards.

Once they started pushing trucks, people started wanting them.

I know that nobody in his right mind wanted a pickup truck or a Bronco or whatever unless they really had a use for them. Then the onslaught of advertising started and now everyone and their sister wants a truck or SUV. (Mostly their sister since it seems that a disproportionate number of these are owned by women.)

[launche]

Thunderbrick it's human nature for them to be in bed together.  What successful (multi-billion dollar) companies/industries are not aligned with their allies?

Special Interest Groups = Corporate Ninja's

[drab]

I mentioned earlier that I'm not 100% convinced we are best served by not importing oil. Why not use up their oil instead of ours?

It's difficult to answer this directly without having the thread deteriorate, just know that it has to do with war, crazy people and that it is strictly my opinion. Also keep in mind that I would like to do away with almost all oil production.

As for all-electric vehicles, I don't think we'd gain much in many areas because their electricity is supplied by coal-fired plants.

Another instituion I'd like to see us move away from and I agree that this...

What I would really like to see is for the US to start building modern nuclear plants, and perhaps even lots of small ones rather than few large ones.

...is a good start. I think solar has a place too.

[turkey]

Biodiesel and WVO (waste veggie oil) are not the same thing.  This is a common misconception.  Biodiesel is a methyl ester made from an oil such as soybean, palm or rapeseed.  Waste oil is just filtered and held in a secondary tank until it warms.  I find WVO to more of a personal solution then a global but to each their own.  Biodiesel does have a different smell but not of fried food.

Interesting. I've never really looked into either one, since I don't have a vehicle that uses them.

A truck had gone by and we smelled a blast of fried food. I said something to my wife and the guy standing next to us said something like "We use a lot of biodisel here." I did see some buses (including a shuttle that we rode) that said biodiesel on the back, and I smelled strong smells of fried food from vehicles a couple of times while we were walking. I don't know whether or not the ones that smelled like fries said biodiesel or not though.

I did ask a few locals about the vehicles that said biodiesel, and they didn't know any details, but they all said they were fairly common.

[turkey]

Thunderbrick it's human nature for them to be in bed together.  What successful (multi-billion dollar) companies/industries are not aligned with their allies?

Special Interest Groups = Corporate Ninja's

Why would they be in bed together? Car makers don't benefit from sales of gasoline. In fact, I would think that a car maker would want to sell you a car that uses less gas so you'll have more money left to buy more (or more expensive) cars.

[drab]

You could probably get a better draft off a PT cruiser - on a bike.  I'd still rather draft behind a truck or at least a fat guy on a bike.  Unfortunately, I'm usually the guy people look forward to drafting.

Are you saying a PT cruiser breaks wind better than a Prius? Sure smells like it when I'm behind one.

[drab]

It does benefit car makers to make cars that have lots of replaceable parts. Oil, oil filters air filters, spark plugs.... They make a lot of money on this stuff, and the labor. Electric vehicles don't require much in the way of service. I think that's why car makers push more for hybrids. (one reason anyway.)

[launche]

"Car makers don't benefit from sales of gasoline."  Ever heard of the stock market for one and lord knows what other insider dealings are involved. 

"A car maker would want to sell you a car that uses less gas."  Back to point one for starters.  A car maker is going to sell you are car that meets or just barely exceeds the going rate. They do the minimum that needs to be done to successful move a product.

Seriously folks.  Are you telling me in all the years we've only come up with one working mass production (fuel) powered engine, really.  For all we know a gear and pulley engine might work just as well.  At least in audio I can respect that we've identified that various materials can produce sound.  But to tell me that gas powered engines are the only means to accelerate a vehicle is laughable.  We've invented or discovered many edible chemicals or foods to fuel the body and fight infections etc... but we can't get beyond a simple gas engine?  Profit margins are the only answer that question.  If a trillion dollar industry wasn't at stake trust me we would have made more progress.  Frankly, vehicles should be running on water.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxfMz2eDME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YRvqAggvss&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QZLKcGkA-s&feature=related

We're being played at every turn my friends.  Marketing and profit margins rule our lives.

And no I'm not a conspiracy theory person, some things are just common sense IMO.

[TomS]

Interesting. I've never really looked into either one, since I don't have a vehicle that uses them.

A truck had gone by and we smelled a blast of fried food. I said something to my wife and the guy standing next to us said something like "We use a lot of biodisel here." I did see some buses (including a shuttle that we rode) that said biodiesel on the back, and I smelled strong smells of fried food from vehicles a couple of times while we were walking. I don't know whether or not the ones that smelled like fries said biodiesel or not though.

I did ask a few locals about the vehicles that said biodiesel, and they didn't know any details, but they all said they were fairly common.

I can buy 2% bio-diesel (B2) for my TDI from many local Countrymark Coop locations in the Midwest http://www.countrymark.com/biodiesel.cfm.  The whole supply chain, from drilling, refining, to distribution is here in Indiana.  All local end to end, no foreign anything.

[genjamon]

Frankly, vehicles should be running on water.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrxfMz2eDME

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YRvqAggvss&feature=related

We're being played at every turn my friends.  Marketing and profit margins rule our lives.

And no I'm not a conspiracy theory person, some things are just common sense IMO.

From the quoted website:

"Hydrogen and Oxygen gas spilt from water, we can "Hydroxy gas"
the molecules are bonded together positively in a ortho hydrogen state,
2.4x's to 4x's more powerful than the normal "para hydrogen" The common hydrogen "para hydrogen" the apposing negative state of hydrogen that can be pressurized into a metal tank or bottle. NOw they store it in plastic bottles., that can take high pressure for long periods that we see in pressured into a liquid metal bottle of gas. Hydroxy gas can NOT be stored this way, it is too powerful to store in a tank. You make the Gas as you drive. Your alternator generates amps to run your stainless steel plate cell under the hood. You make the gas as you drive. You never hear much of this, expect for Nasa with rockets. Being illegal to run a car just off of water on a US hyway is a crime in the USA. Why this individual would drive an buy no road tax from the gasoline? He would STOP supporting the government gas tax, every time you fill up."

Not only is the chemistry in the first part of the paragraph incomprehensible B.S., the idea described later in the paragraph is that of a perpetual motion machine.  Violates Newton's 1st Law, not worth consideration.

[S Clark]

Frankly, vehicles should be running on water.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/
And no I'm not a conspiracy theory person, some things are just common sense IMO.

I have seen this stuff for decades, and it never adds up.  A fairly simple understanding of chemistry tells you that 2H₂ + O₂ ---> 2H₂O + energy.  But to split water to get the fuel, you have to run the reaction backwards, including the addition of the same amount of energy (and actually a bit more).  Assuming a 100% efficiency (which you never get in reactions or energy conversions) the absolute best you can do is break even.  What this proposes is a classic "perpetual motion" machine that is absolutely impossible. 

[S Clark]

Genjamon, you beat me to the post!