[thunderbrick]

This afternoon one of my former students (now a GM engineer) showed up on campus with a pre-production Chevy Volt that I had to photograph.  When  I got to drive it I was amazed to find out how well thought out it was! It was fast, handled great, felt solid as a rock, had great fit and finish and was fun to drive!  And I have driven BMWs for years.

What's more, the Bose (ugh!) sound system sounded fantastic once I set the tone controls the way I liked. Bass was clean, tight, not overbearing, and was a sound  that I could easily live with.  And that was on Satellite radio!  It made my wife's New Beetle and its crummy audio system sound like a 1950s-era crystal radio.  A VERY pleasant surprise, and it doesn't even say "Bose" anywhere on the dash!
(Like the engineer said, "no highs, no lows, it must be Bose!")

I rent a lot of cars when I travel, and most cars feel like tin toys, but this car was very nice.  Good looking, too!

[Letitroll98]

Kewl!  I would have to rewire my house to get 220V to the car, but I would still be interested in an electric car that drove well.  When you say fast, do you mean fast for an electric car, or fast as in 328 fast?

[thunderbrick]

It'll plug in to an ordinary 110V outlet, and you can tell it to charge 110v, 220v, quickly or when electric is cheapest.

I only ran it on city streets up to 50mph or so, but it had lots of torque.  Fairly close to my 525, I'd say.  I think he said 0-60 in 9 seconds, but it simply felt fast.

And the weight distribution is supposed to be close to 50-50, like the Beemers.  Sure felt like it.

[Nels Ferre]

Cool that you got to drive one before it is out.

Here's what I don't get, coming from someone that buys a nice car used and takes care of them and runs them till the work that becomes necessary exceeds the trade in value of the vehicle. My last 3 cars: '94 BMW 3 series, traded with 194K, 1986 Porsche sold with 140K, '89 BMW 3 series sold with 250K. I don't buy or sell often. I am currently driving a 2009 Hyundai, purchased used with 1600 miles on it, now has 14K.

OK, so someone buys this thing, and saves a bunch of money (theoretically) because electricity is cheaper than gas. It's better for the environment too, bonus. Then the batteries go which cost a freaking fortune to replace. Not only is all the "saved" money gone but you have to come out of pocket all at once to fix it.

Or, you could trade the vehicle when the batteries near the end of their useful life. Of course, you don't get full use of the car that way. Those who buy the cars used are in for an expensive world of hurt, and the cars will get a reputation as something to avoid buying used, which affects trade in value or the ability to sell outright.

While I realize we need to reduce our dependence on oil, the Volt or the Nissan Leaf or whatever just seem like they are not quite ready for prime time. Am I missing something?

[avahifi]

I did a bit of calculations a while ago regarding "cost savings" for driving a Toyota hybrid.

Figuring in the out of warranty cost of replacing battery packs and converting that to gasoline cost,
the lucky Toyota Prius owner is really getting 17 miles per gallon - almost as much as my 2002 350HP Audi S6 Avant. 

[Nels Ferre]

Frank,

You forgot to figure in the fun factor of driving the Audi over a hybrid. Looks like you are on the real winning end of that deal.

[launche]

You've got to see things in the big picture.  It would all be worth it if all it did was reduce oil dependency, even if it didn't provide better mileage.

[Danny Richie]

I still can't believe they added an on board engine to turn a generator, that makes electricity, that is then stored in batteries, that then is used to power an electric motor to move the car... talk about inefficiency. That is dumber than dumb. That's malignant dumb. 

[bpape]

In the long run, if enough people buy them, the cost of the battery replacement should go down drastically. 

Bryan

[jackman]

I did a bit of calculations a while ago regarding "cost savings" for driving a Toyota hybrid.

Figuring in the out of warranty cost of replacing battery packs and converting that to gasoline cost,
the lucky Toyota Prius owner is really getting 17 miles per gallon - almost as much as my 2002 350HP Audi S6 Avant. 

Care to show your math? 

I'm not a Toyota fan (see the Toyota thread for proof) but I have riden in Prius cars with +100K miles (independent taxi cab) that still ran great.  In your "figuring" did you assume the battery would be dead in 50k miles?  Also, Toyota has supposedly been good about replacing batteries that fail.  Of course, if the auto transmission in the Prius goes out, you could spend over $9,000 getting it fixed (look it up, this is true).  I'd be more afraid of that then the battery. 

I hope the Volt does well.  It's not a car for me but I look forward to seeing them on the road.  Battery performance has improved over the years and I expect the ones produced next year and beyond to be even better.  As more companies adopt this technology, the market will adapt.  Of course, this might mean local utility companies will start to raise prices on electricity (which I believe is generated primarily from burning coal in my state!).  It's funny to think of the guy who spends a fortune to "go green" and buying a battery powered car in a state that uses coal to generate electricity. 

[drab]

I think of it less about going green as much as reducing oil dependency.

[turkey]

While I realize we need to reduce our dependence on oil, the Volt or the Nissan Leaf or whatever just seem like they are not quite ready for prime time. Am I missing something?

Do we really need to reduce our dependence on foreign oil? Spending less on foreign oil won't cut funding for terrorists or enemy states by much, because that oil is going to get sold sooner or later, to us or whoever.

We can't completely cut our dependence on foreign oil. We can work towards that, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Why not use up their oil and keep our own for a rainy day? That keeps spills and the other problems of oil drilling away from the US too.

As for the Prius, it's evidently a very good car. I saw some figures from CU that showed that it doesn't really save you money because there's a higher upfront cost, but it didn't seem to be a bad choice either.

I don't know whether or not the Prius or other cars are actually better for the environment when all is said and done. I think we need more info on that, but it's true of products in general.

The Volt does look interesting, and it's a US car. I really want the US auto industry to succeed and to give me a reason for buying from them.

As for electric cars in general, I saw some recently in Ketchikan that are almost practical for me in Ohio.

http://www.gemcar.com/

It has enough range for my commute. (It would be even better if I could charge it while at work, but that is probably a ways off yet.) It's not quite fast enough at 25mph, but if they could boost it to 35 mph it would work for me.

I suspect it wouldn't be great during the winter, but I guess a snowmobile suit or something similar would take care of that. It would certainly handle most shopping, going out to dinner, visiting many of my friends, etc.

I could probably work with a 35mph version of these as a second car. If there were better public transportation in my area I could probably even use one of these as my primary car.

[MaxCast]

What kind of sound did it make?  Was it a vroom vroom or a weeeer weeer? 

[Don_S]

Ten years ago I got to drive one of the electric cars my workplace was using.  I don't know about on the highway but they were scary quick around town.  Maybe it was the "stealth factor".  Near silent acceleration compared to the other crap cars the office was using.  At any rate we were given multiple warnings that pedestrians could not hear us coming.  Heh, heh, 

[woodsyi]

3 weeks after getting my Fusion Hybrid, I am still running on the original tank of fuel.  I would normally fill up every week on the same size tank with Pontiac.   However inefficiently they are doing it, I am using much less gas.   

[turkey]

What kind of sound did it make?  Was it a vroom vroom or a weeeer weeer?

Piston engine goes boing, boing, but the Mazda goes mmmmmm.

[mort]

I think of it less about going green as much as reducing oil dependency.

Humans are not green, Americans are way less green, buying new things will never be green no mater how green they are. Buying more efficiant vehicles is not the answer. Having less kids is the greenest thing we can do.

[turkey]

3 weeks after getting my Fusion Hybrid, I am still running on the original tank of fuel.  I would normally fill up every week on the same size tank with Pontiac.   However inefficiently they are doing it, I am using much less gas. 

Yes, but...

We also have to ask how much of a premium you paid over a non-hybrid, and also how often you would fill up with a non-hybrid Fusion. (The base model starts at about $19.5K, while the hybrid starts at almost $29K.)

We could also ask whether there was a change in your driving habits forced by the hybrid. Could that account for some of the difference.

What kind of cost will you see over the life of the car, and how does it compare to a non-hybrid Fusion?

What is the total cost of the two versions? For instance, let's say the hybrid uses toxic chemicals in the batteries that eventually have to be disposed of underground in a Yucca Mountain-like facility. (Yes, I know I'm stretching things to make a point...) The total cost to the owner, society, the world, whoever is then going to be much higher for the hybrid version.

Or going the other way, the hybrid burns less fuel, so the mostly hidden costs of pollution are lower for it. Now we look at any hidden costs of manufacturing. We need to be able to get this kind of info. Unfortunately, it's often difficult to figure these things out, plus there often isn't anyone really interested in giving us the straight scoop.

I honestly don't know what to make of a car like your Fusion Hybrid. I don't have enough info to really judge it based on its green-ness or how economical it really is. (Actually, I hate stopping and getting gas, so it sounds great to me just based on that.)

[turkey]

Humans are not green, Americans are way less green, buying new things will never be green no mater how green they are. Buying more efficiant vehicles is not the answer. Having less kids is the greenest thing we can do.

Except for some ethnic groups, the birth rate in the US is already lower than it is in many other places in the world.

If nothing else, in some places you have to have a lot of kids to support you in your old age. (India is one. They don't have much in the way of anything like Social Security, pensions, nursing homes, or anything like that.)

Are we going to tell the Chinese to have less kids? They won't even curb their air pollution. (On the other hand, how would the US have reacted 75 years ago to a similar demand from other countries?)

I tend to agree with you, but I'm not sure it's realistic, nor am I sure it's good for the US in the short term. (Although it's probably good for the world in the long term.)

[TomS]

Glad to hear the Volt's a nice ride, but it should be. 

For $41k+options, not to mention local dealer MSRP premiums to be among the first, you get a $17k Chevy Cruze, very nicely equipped, powered by an electric motor and gas motor that runs on premium fuel.  Fortunately it shouldn't need much gas.  Even for those with so much disposable cash that paying over sticker (rumored as much as +$20k in CA) is no worry, the government feels compelled to add a $7500 "incentive" (huh?), to go along with all of the other tax dollars we've likely poured into it.