[TONEPUB]

I'm waiting for a 'diverted' Magna Cart Flatform .... 

amazon!

[Letitroll98]

Am I the only one here that has a problem with the OP accusing someone of doing something illegal and posting it on an open forum(It's either coming from a dealer under the table or it's hot.   Simple.)? Just curious.

I understand your concern decal, but may I gently say I think it's unfounded.  I think it would be unethical to make suppositions like this if he had named the seller, unless he had hard evidence that this was the case.  But using an un-named example to make a point regarding internet sales and how they relate to dealers and manufacturers is harming no one.  He could make up the story out of whole cloth and I think everyone would recognize the situation in general as true.

One need only look to the pages herein to see the large number of manufacturers and dealers both large and small selling direct on the internet out of this site.  I try to support my local dealers and have bought many items there.  But seriously, how much service are you getting on a pair of interconnects?  Or a CDP, or an amplifier?  Speakers I like to listen to and I don't listen at the dealer then buy on the internet, if he gives me his time and expertise I give him the sale.  The same goes for turntables, but I've run across several good deals used on the internet and haven't bought a table from a dealer since the mid 1980's.  My last CDP I bought from a dealer because he took the time to audition several for me, but it now runs as a transport feeding a DAC I bought on the internet. 

The market has undoubtedly already changed and brick and mortar only stores are going the way of the dodo.  It may be sad, but you cannot deny the power of the free market.  Leftover older model Magna Carts are going for fire sale prices on the net.        

[Quiet Earth]

As for what I'm doing with this post, I only point it out to open discussion about high end retail and how poorly it is now serving it's customers.

My idea of high end retail is a physical place where someone spends a lot of his/her time and experience helping you to make choices for the long run. You can even make some friends in the store if you stay long enough.

On the other hand, I view Audiogon (and other e-tailers) as the place for a quick sale, used gear, and you take your chances based on what you read, not what you hear. I think there is room for both places in this world, they're just not the same thing.

[Quiet Earth]

 if he gives me his time and expertise I give him the sale.     

Amen to that!   

[JLM]

The only dealers I have within 50 miles are lame (they carry Rotel, Paradigm, and Anthem as their high end stuff).  Within a 200 mile radius all but two stores are primarily A/V outlets.  Those two are barely stores (nothing remotely close to a decent listening room), but are the only ones to carry one or two pieces of tubed equipment.  None of these places admit to ever having heard of any of the A/C brands or know what an audiofest is.

I'm sensitive to the challenge of B&M audio retail, compared to on-line shopping they offer:

1.  Typically a weekend loaner policy to trial pieces;
2.  Hopefully a direct number to manufacturer's service departments.

OTOH:

1.  They don't carry any brands I'm interested in;
2.  They don't offer advice any better than I can find here;
3.  Their listening spaces are less ideal than my room;
4.  Anything they carry that might be comparable to stuff I'm interested in is over priced.

So what's a boy to do? 

[turkey]

So, without the high end retailer where are you going to hear the product? Who are you going to call when you need technical advice? What are you going to do when something goes wrong and you have no warranty?
Smell the roses... Without the high end dealer there will be no high end.   
You clearly did not think things through before making your post.

I think high-end audio can do quite well without dealers. To me, they're just dinosaurs.

[turkey]

40 points is the normal margin for audio. It is MUCH higher for wire, cables, accessories, etc.
There are very few other retail businesses that still command 40 points.

I've seen some price lists within the last year that show that a number of speaker companies are still building in a 100% markup for the dealer.

Musical instruments often have the same markup too. (I'm not sure how many dealers expect to get retail price on instruments these days though. Probably not very many.)

[ctviggen]

In terms of speaker comparisons, I'd like to have a location to compare these.  I went with a friend a while back to listen to speakers in the 4-10k range. We listened to a ton of speakers, each using exactly the same equipment, interconnects, and room.  That was great (we both liked Dynaudio of all the speakers we heard at that time). 

This type of scenario doesn't really exist anymore.  I did have someone come over to listen to my VMPS RM40s and Salk HT3s, but that's on my gear in my room.  He commented that both speakers had "too much bass", which I think is due to a massive room mode.  Also, I didn't have my preamp in the lineup, and my modified Squeezebox doesn't have enough voltage output to drive my amps to be able to play the speakers very loudly.  This is an OK situation, but it's not as if I could rotate in another 5-6 speakers. 

[TheChairGuy]

I'm waiting for a 'diverted' Magna Cart Flatform .... 

Ha - that's about the highest form of flattery in consumer products...diverted goods.

Reality is in a for-profit business, many makers give tacit lip service about diverted goods ending up at unauthorized retailers...but, they love the additional volume and profits

I remember my doe-eyed, sister-in-law who worked for AVEDA (high end cosmetics) several years back...when my wife asked how a brand (supposedly) only sold to salons ended up in her discount cosmetic store in Washington DC.  Her pat answer, supplied to her by her bosses, was 'diverted goods'.  Ha - 7 times out of 10 the 'diversion' is in full cahoots with the manufacturer itself.

Eager to post higher sales and profits to satisfy, goods get quietly diverted. 

Moreover, me and the company are pretty much HO'S already - if you can buy a container load from us - you're a dealer (ka-ching!). If you can only swing $1200.00 minimum...we have domestic product for you at slightly higher prices...or you can buy from a national retail distributor we've appointed in Chicago.  Distributors outside of US? -  you betcha'; 7 countries covering about 20 more countries 

It's a lot different than high-end audio.  It's a friggin' hand truck - very nice ones to some perhaps - we don't have any pretense that it's anything more or less. So, diverted goods wouldn't happen from us as we'll just sell you if you ask us

To me, brick n mortar dealers of high end audio are simply anachronisms of a forgotten time.  To survive, you need to do either or both repairs and (video/audio) installation.  It's such a small market and the net has made democratization a reality - it eradicates the large-scale need for high-end dealers, by and large. I mentioned this in a post over 5 years ago I think and got lambasted by a couple B & M dealers; but what was said then is even more appropriate now.

btw, Amazon is 'authorized' and the price on the Flatform Truck is sensational.  After free shipping, I doubt those guys are making more than $8 on it for profit.  Seriously, those guys know how to build an online business (getting folks to buy and then post reviews is critical to propelling future sales) - we've been with them for about 7 years now. Once they get sales going, that cart goes to $79.99.

John

[turkey]

I try to support my local dealers and have bought many items there. 

I don't really have any local dealers. There are a couple of places that sell home theater equipment, but they don't know anything about stereo, and they're not terribly interested in selling anything but custom home theater installations.

There were several high-end dealers when I was younger. I used to go in and look around, but they treated me like crap because I didn't have much money. One even told me I was wasting his time because I couldn't afford the stuff he wanted to sell.

So, when I had money, I didn't go to these places.



 

[JLM]

He commented that both speakers had "too much bass

Friend, it seems like you need to trade in a pair of speakers for room treatments and some EQ.

[ctviggen]

Friend, it seems like you need to trade in a pair of speakers for room treatments and some EQ.

I had two mondo traps (corners), three regular traps (ceiling + first reflection points), two thin traps (between speakers), two "stand" traps (no longer made) (corners), (all Realtraps) and two subwoofer traps (ASC) (under subs, but subs weren't in use) in this room.  That's well over 1k in traps.  Not sure I could get the wife to agree to any more traps, or if I'd have the money or space for them. 

I'm considering electronic methods, but I've since totally gutted the room and completely reversed the locations of the speakers.  The room should be done in a few weeks and we'll see what happens then.

[ctviggen]

It might be over 2K in traps. 

[K Shep]

He commented that both speakers had "too much bass", which I think is due to a massive room mode. 

I'm considering electronic methods, but I've since totally gutted the room and completely reversed the locations of the speakers.  The room should be done in a few weeks and we'll see what happens then.

Have you measured your room?  Free software is available from HT Shack and the equipment necessary to perform the measurements cost around $150 (mic, mic cable, sound card and SPL meter).

Measuring my room help me understand the bass issues inherent in my room.

[Bemopti123]

When purchasing used from Wild Wild West that is the internet, even though something is considered "new" it is much to expect to get a receipt and also warranty from the manufacturer. 

Since discovering Audiogon, there has been just 2 pieces that have been bought from a "dealer" with its obvious manufacturer's warranties. 

I believe in recyling audio, meaning, I purchase items out of warranty, vintage stuff etc.... paying 40-50% at most for the majority of items, most of the stuff I purchase though are not stuff that is esoteric and horribly difficult to repair (like HT receivers, and equipment with several dozen PCB with micro components) so in case that something goes bust, they are easily fixable. 

There are items that are contemporary, modern, with digital modules that I crave BUT, I ain't paying more than $300 MAX for stuff like this.

When people catch up with high end, they tend to go the simple, reliable route and unless one has endless revenue stream available, people tend to purchase 'used' with very little expected from a Mortar Dealer in terms of experience and setup choices. 

Talking about longevity and value....look at the following story...

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1224975981&read&keyw&zzjbl=075

[turkey]

To me, brick n mortar dealers of high end audio are simply anachronisms of a forgotten time.

I would actually go into a local dealer and think about buying from them, if they first and foremost offered service and treated me like they wanted my business.

A typical dealer experience for me was at an AKFest. I went into this room where some dealer had all this ARC gear and a pair of enormous Maggies. I sat and listened for about a minute and got up to leave. They two salesman buttonholed me and asked me what I thought of their system. I replied that it was hard to tell because the speakers were too big for the room.

They started telling me that the last 10 people who stopped by just came in their pants because they loved it so much. Then they said I must not be used to gear of such a high caliber as the products they carried.

On the other hand, when I visited his room, Jim Salk was very gracious and friendly, and he also freely admitted that the rooms were not ideal. He told me that I could contact him and see if some owners in my area might be able to let me get a listen to his speakers in a better environment, or I could come listen to them at his place if I were in the area. He also told me that an in-home trial was available for some of his speakers.

I left Jim's room feeling like I had just made a new friend.

Guess who I'm more likely to buy from?

[ctviggen]

Have you measured your room?  Free software is available from HT Shack and the equipment necessary to perform the measurements cost around $150 (mic, mic cable, sound card and SPL meter).

Measuring my room help me understand the bass issues inherent in my room.

Here's one of my many measurements:





So, yes I've measured my room.  I could never tell whether that hump at about 60Hz was AC leakage into the measurement or a true hump. 

Here's what the room looked like when I made these measurements (though no traps are shown; got those later):




Here's what the room looked like about two weeks ago:




The speakers (sold the VMPS and kept the Salks) will be on the opposite wall, now, which is not shown in these pictures.  So, the frequency response of the room may or may not have the same hump. 

[TheChairGuy]

They two salesman buttonholed me and asked me what I thought of their system. I replied that it was hard to tell because the speakers were too big for the room.

They started telling me that the last 10 people who stopped by just came in their pants because they loved it so much. Then they said I must not be used to gear of such a high caliber as the products they carried.

Boldfaced for effect....ha...haven't tried that line and I think I'll avoid it entirely in the future.

Doesn't seem like much of a come on for my dealers

John

[jimdgoulding]

My idea of high end retail is a physical place where someone spends a lot of his/her time and experience helping you to make choices for the long run. You can even make some friends in the store if you stay long enough.

On the other hand, I view Audiogon (and other e-tailers) as the place for a quick sale, used gear, and you take your chances based on what you read, not what you hear. I think there is room for both places in this world, they're just not the same thing.

My thinking, also.  I miss Audio Concepts in Houston.  Nice place to hang out and get some hands on exposure to new stuff not to mention listen.

[rollo]

40 points is the normal margin for audio. It is MUCH higher for wire, cables, accessories, etc.
There are very few other retail businesses that still command 40 points.

Making big profits has been declared pure evil.  Didn't audiophiles get the memo?

  For some of the best known dealers it can be up to 60%. Most will offer a discount of 10 to 20%. If your a good customer a better deal can be had. Cash talks credit walks.
  Saying that I believe we all would like the best price. So wether E-bay audiogon, private or dealer its the price. A good deal is a good deal.
  What I think is MIA is the push towards main stream exposure. The days of the High End Botique is dwindling. Best Buy, Walmart, why not. The only area where I see an issue is with customer service with the big guys. Believe me dealing with some Manufacturers can be a nightmare. Service if needed should be the deciding factor, not just price.


charles