[MorganE]

For Isabellina  HPA owners, it does not (may not!) make sense to upgrade their isabellina HPAs.  They are better off financially in the long run upgrading to an Isabella under the old upgrade offer - unless I am missing something! The website does not list the option of upgrading current Isabellina HPAs to the upgraded Isabella.  Vinnie needs to clarify this.

Assuming the following:

Isabella cost = $4,000 (upgraded price the same as old price)

Upgrade from Isabellina HPA to new Isabella = $1,500 [ Note: This option and cost is not shown on the website as stated above, but reflects the old upgrade policy]

Total cost = $4,000

Isabellina HPA  ('old') = $2,500

Cost of upgrade = $1,000

Total cost for current Isabellina HPA owners = $3,500

Retail price for upgraded Isabellina HPA = $2,500


Bottom line - Current Isabellina HPA owners who upgrade have paid $3,500 for their upgraded isabellina HPA vs $2,500 for new buyers.  The upgrade cost to an old Isabella was $1,500 ...and they are getting an upgraded one now for the same $1,500 upgrade cost.  The big difference is that with the Isabella they have a product that retails for what they have paid for it, i.e. $4,000 vs the Isabellina where they have paid $3,500 for a product that retails at $2,500.

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Morgan,

I'm not sure if this helps to clarify things, but:

The Isabella LFP-V Edition, with dac and headphone stage (which is now mounted on the front panel now that we have the room for it) is $6000, not $4000.

The Isabella LFP-V Edition with headphone stage (and without the dac) is $4500.

So when you  mention the Isabella is $4000, this does not include the dac or headphone stage (which the HPA has).

vs the Isabellina where they have paid $3,500 for a product that retails at $2,500.

The Isabellina LFP-V Edition is the stand-alone dac (not the Isabellina HPA LFP-V Edition) and retails for $2000 (with USB), or $1500 (w/o USB). 

Sorry if there was any confusion on pricing...

I'll post more later...


Best regards,

Vinnie

[Vinnie R.]

All,

Thank you for all your well wishes!   

This morning’s e-mail was full of inquires and orders, so thank you for the great response! I’ll be responding individually to your emails as quickly as I can.  Based on emails and phone calls, the first batch of units is spoken for. Lead-time for the second batch of new orders and upgrade will be in the late-August / early-September time frame.  This is really exciting, and I appreciate all your patience and understanding during this very busy time.

This come week we will be issuing a press release and updating RWA banner ads to promote the LFP-V Edition. Based on the initial reaction, I anticipate lead-times will continue to grow. Upgrades / shipments are made in the order in which they are received.

* is buffer ONLY option available?
* is battery upgrade only available?
* if so, what cost for each are we looking at?
* is the tube choice strictly 6922 or ..... ????
* Since the Isabella preamp option for new battery PS is $500, I figure that tube buffer option would be more or less the same.........but availability and pricing is only my speculation. 

Hi Mariusz,

The LFP-V Edition is only offered with both the new LiFePO4 battery pack and Tube Stage. 

The choice of tubes are listed on this more detailed page regarding the tube stage:
http://www.redwineaudio.com/products/lfpv-tubeinfo

Accepted Tubes:
6922 / E88CC, 6DJ8 / ECC88, 7308 / E188CC, 7DJ8 / PCC88, 6N23, 6H23, 6N11 and 6GM8

For the Isabella preamp, the LFP-V Edition upgrade involves all the upgrades listed on the webpage (except the tube stage, as the Isabella is already a tubed preamplifier), and this is $500.  We also now have available a new faceplate that allows those who have the built-in Isabella headphone stage to be installed on the front panel (now that we have the space for this).  This is $500 option, and not required.  I'll post pictures once I receive them...

Is the tube ckt. in the isabellina the same as the one in the isabella?
I just might save up for an updated  Isabella.  Any one interested in an older Isabellina?

Hi Coldfogey,

The is not the same tube circuit as in the Isabella preamp.   Well, some of the circuit is the same (such as the auto-mute delayed turn-on), and we use the same tube family.  But only one dual-triode tube is used for the LFP-V tube stage.

Also keep in mind that I still offer the 100% trade-up policy for trading up from the Isabellina dac to the Isabella preamplifier with dac. 

If you think that I can risk 2K on upgrades at this economy and NOT consider a resell value.....think again. Nothing personal but in my opinion, it is a big FU to old customers.
Just my 2 cents.

Hi Mariusz (and Jouni),

I am sorry you feel this way, but this not intended to be an “FU” to anyone.     If I did not offer an upgrade path, that would be a different story.   I have always tried to keep an upgrade path available for our customers (as well as 100% trade-up policies and as much as I can afford to keep my old and new customers happy).  But I understand that I cannot make every single customer happy. 

You mention the economy, and this certainly comes into play for Red Wine Audio as well as for my customers.  Some difficult decisions had to be made, and the LFP-V Edition was no exception.  The LFP-V Edition offers significant improvements and a lot more value to all our products.  For those who do not have the LFP-V Editions, their units are already used and resale value is quite low these days for pretty much all used audio gear.

I am very proud to provide my current customers with an upgrade path, and new customers with even better value.  The response so far has been overwhelmingly fantastic, and I am very thankful and appreciative for all my customers (old and new) and ALWAYS will be!   

I don’t know many companies these days who offer this (and I’m not just talking about home audio manufacturers). 

I’m looking forward to filling the backlog of new (and upgrades to) LFP-V Edition products and all your feedback when you get to listen – your expectations should be high and I am confident that they will be exceeded!  Hopefully then we can start talking about the sound and the music! 

Thanks again for all your feedback!

Vinnie

[Eadron]

Vinnie, thanks for your response. You've good points there, I mostly agree. Anyhow, I still feel you should've priced for example the mono upgrade more customer friendly, say $500-750 range, even it's very labor intensive. Me aside, think about those who recently bought, say the monos and paid full retail price ..

But, if I were you, I would've propably done the same - don't know..

Ok, I'm pretty much said everything which bothered me.

Jouni (thinking robbing a bank or empting children's college funds savings.. )

[Mariusz]

I know that you are a stand up guy and I said so myself.
You alway stand behind your product and customers.

I am sure that LFP-V upgrade is a significant one : tube buffer is a welcomed addition .......
and better battery+charging system which would be an answer to prayers of many. 
However there seems to be some sort of misunderstanding.....??????

The point that I was trying to make was quite simple.

We all know the present 2nd hand value and 50% off list is quite a norm on most gear.

So...., for example :
If someone decided to sell HPA DAC he would have to settle for  $750 to make it remotely worth it to buyer considering the upgrade cost (given the fact that new/upgraded unit list for $2500). ......and it wouldn't be an easy sell either.
Someone will say- upgrade your HPA then!!!
Well to upgrade 2 units, it would cost me 2K+......
I am sorry to disappoint those with deep pockets shaking their heads but this is simply not on my (& many others) "to do list"........at least not in near future. I guess that some of us will have to enjoy our RWA gear without special "thank you" note inside the enclosure. 

On that note, I would like to purchase 4 new (older) batteries and 2 "smart" chargers since my warranty just expired. 


Best
Mariusz

[keepingtime]

Congratulations to Vinnie and RWA on this new LFP-V version! To me this is fantastic news and I've already shipped my 30.2 and Isabella for this upgrade. I am extremely excited to hear them! I will post my opinion of their sound once I've had a good listen.

Thank you Vinnie for making these upgrades available to existing owners! I can't think of many/any companies that offer to retrofit older products to the new one, and at what seems to me to be such a reasonable price. This is great! I really appreciate your having made retrofitting a possible option.

Cheers

[srb]

I know that you are stand up gay and I said so myself.

Did you mean stand up guy?  Not that there's anything wrong with it if you didn't.
 
Steve

[Mariusz]

Typo corrected.
(iPhone seems to have a brain of its own - sometimes)
 

[coldfogey]

Hi Profbatsch,

How much do you think I can get for my Radio Shack gold plated interconnects?  Who knows it may just swing the trade up for me.  Thanks for the TIP.

[coldfogey]

Hi Vinnie,
 Now that I read your later post, I dont feel too bad.  I paid $2500 for the Isabellina DAC/ Headphone Amp.  You say the new Isabella LFP-V DAC/Headphone Amp will cost $6000. I guess that would mean my Isabellina and $3500 will get me a brand new  Isabella LFP/V = PreAmp/DAC/Headphone Amp?  That sounds like a winner to me.  How much longer will this trade up policy last?

[MorganE]

Hi Vinnie,

Thanks for clarifying the pricing for me. The upgrades look great, and I will look forward to reading the impressions  of fellow RWA owners of them over the next few months.

MorganE

[wilsynet]

Ok, onto the sound!

How substantial is the difference between the old Isabella and the new Isabella LFP+V?

[jjoonnaass]

I can't quite understand what people are complaining about. Do you feel the same way when other manufacturers introduce new "improved" products at the same price point as something you already own? How about cars, washing machines, computers, televisions, etc?

Most manufacturers would simply release new products with new names and without any kind of upgrade policy. I fail to see how this would be better for the customer. I also can't think of many (any?) audio manufacturers who offer as generous upgrade and trade in policies as Red Wine Audio. Well done Vinnie!

I bought my Signature 30.2 just over a week ago. Living in Europe it would cost me $1500+ to have it upgraded but that doesn't mean that I'm unhappy with my purchase. The amp is still great and I've finally found a solid state amp that is as good or even better than my old PSE 300B amp while giving me those extra dB's that I've been looking for.

I'm intrigued by the LFP-V mods but I'm also a bit confused by the options. The battery upgrade seems like a no braininer, but if the tube buffer is just a buffer and identical from product to product I can't help but wonder if this will be too much of a good thing when feeding let's say an Isabellina to a Signature 30.2. It will be very interesting to hear the feedback from all you early adopters out there.

[Vinnie R.]

Congratulations to Vinnie and RWA on this new LFP-V version! To me this is fantastic news and I've already shipped my 30.2 and Isabella for this upgrade. I am extremely excited to hear them! I will post my opinion of their sound once I've had a good listen.

Thank you Vinnie for making these upgrades available to existing owners! I can't think of many/any companies that offer to retrofit older products to the new one, and at what seems to me to be such a reasonable price. This is great! I really appreciate your having made retrofitting a possible option.

Cheers

Hi keepingtime,

Thanks for your post, and your Isabella and 30.2 should be here any day now! 

Hi Vinnie,
 Now that I read your later post, I dont feel too bad.  I paid $2500 for the Isabellina DAC/ Headphone Amp.  You say the new Isabella LFP-V DAC/Headphone Amp will cost $6000. I guess that would mean my Isabellina and $3500 will get me a brand new  Isabella LFP/V = PreAmp/DAC/Headphone Amp?  That sounds like a winner to me.  How much longer will this trade up policy last?

Hi coldfogey,

Thank you, and YES - the 100% trade-up still applies!

I have not set a date when the trade-up policy will be discontinued.  It has been going strong now for quite some time and our customers (new and old) love it.  If I were to ever discontinue the trade-up policy, I would post about it well in advance.  Thanks for your post.

Hi Vinnie,

Thanks for clarifying the pricing for me. The upgrades look great, and I will look forward to reading the impressions  of fellow RWA owners of them over the next few months.

MorganE

Hi MorganE,

Your welcome - and thanks!

Ok, onto the sound!

How substantial is the difference between the old Isabella and the new Isabella LFP+V?

Hi wilsynet,

It is quite substantial - you'll notice and love it right away.  For $500 for the Isabella, it is a no-brainer! 

Once I get into all these upgrades in our customers' hands (I'm now backlogged into September - so more parts are being ordered to keep up with demand), I'll be looking forward to all your listening impressions.  Hopefully new thread(s) can be posted on the RWA forum with listening impressions. 

I can't quite understand what people are complaining about. Do you feel the same way when other manufacturers introduce new "improved" products at the same price point as something you already own? How about cars, washing machines, computers, televisions, etc?

Most manufacturers would simply release new products with new names and without any kind of upgrade policy. I fail to see how this would be better for the customer. I also can't think of many (any?) audio manufacturers who offer as generous upgrade and trade in policies as Red Wine Audio. Well done Vinnie!

Hi jjoonnaass,

Welcome to Audiocircle and the RWA forum, and thank you for your post! 

I really appreciate your post and understanding, but I don't think it is worth debating anymore. 

I hope we can all keep this thread focused on the LFP-V Edition, and not about price and resale value, etc. 

I'm intrigued by the LFP-V mods but I'm also a bit confused by the options. The battery upgrade seems like a no braininer, but if the tube buffer is just a buffer and identical from product to product I can't help but wonder if this will be too much of a good thing when feeding let's say an Isabellina to a Signature 30.2.

Great question - and the answer is NO - it is NOT "too much of a good thing."  It is MORE of a great thing!  I've listened to the various configurations, and in EVERY situation, the LFP-V Editions paired together always sounded better in all respects compared to the non-LFP-V (compared to not having the tube stage).  It just makes better sound even "better-er!" 

It will be very interesting to hear the feedback from all you early adopters out there.

I'm much looking forward to this as well!

Back to work for me

Vinnie

[David C.]

Hi Vinnie,

I have a Sig 30.2 amp, an Isabellina dac and a thousand dollars burning a hole in my pocket. Which one should I upgrade?

David

[Eadron]

^That's a good question. Isabella w/ dac or 70.2s?

jouni

[Vinnie R.]

Hi Vinnie,

I have a Sig 30.2 amp, an Isabellina dac and a thousand dollars burning a hole in my pocket. Which one should I upgrade?

David

Hi David,

Great question!  If you can only pick one, I would start with the Signature 30.2 Integrated.

^That's a good question. Isabella w/ dac or 70.2s?

Hi Jouni,

Also a great question!  If you could only pick one, I would start with the 70.2s...

LiFePO4 and the tube stage really makes the amplifiers sing!  But it also does great things with the Isabellina... 


Best regards,

Vinnie

[Vinnie R.]

Here is an informal shot of a fully-loaded Isabella LFP-V Edition (headphone stage moved to the front panel):





It is hard to tell in this pic, but the headphone jack is recessed in the front panel (just like the Isabellina HPA).  The diameter of the recessed section is identical to the recessed section for the input select switch on the right side.

Absolutely phenomenal sounding dac, preamp and headphone amp combo! 

Vinnie

[adamaley]

Vinnie,

I am waiting eagerly for feedback on how these new changes affect each of your products. I'm glad many have gone from worry over resale value to embracing the new possibilities to improve their systems. I for one have been mulling over what sort of direction to take my system without making any wholesale changes to it. Among other things, I have been considering upgrading to 70.2s, getting a Squeezebox touch to replace the classic, test and settle on some footers for components, add some more room treatments (8 panels thus far), and finally upgrade my my digital cable. It is worth noting that I am extremely happy with the sound.

I have a few specific questions for you (questions also apply to members who are in a position to offer experience and informed advise):

Seeing as I oddly possess an Isabellina and Isabella, I was wondering if you feel it would be worthwhile to add the tube buffer to the Isabellina. I ask because most of your customers have the in-built DAC in the Isabella. Would the extra tube buffer be a meaningful addition? Have you tested this iteration as yet?

I would assume the switch to the the new improved battery will benefit the amplifiers more than anything else in the chain. I figure, better, faster delivery of power will be more sonically evident there. Kindly advise on what you think, which of Isabellina, Isabella or your amps would benefit the most to begin with?

Also, would you say the added tube buffer to your amps render it more or less in the tube-amp-sounding class. I know one wouldn't want to pidgeon-hole the attributes here, but some descriptive impressions here would help guide many towards synergy.

I know that answers will arise with time. One thing I count on is that I trust Vinnie's ear and i am excited that a manufacturer will not rest on his laurels. I'm glad already-existing products can be improved upon. In this industry, you could easily have rebranded the products, smacked an absurd price increase on them and there would have been less hoopla about resale value. I simply hope that I am able to perceive as much of the additional performance you feel these upgrades will make.

Once again, kudos to you.

Fellas, I'm sure a few of you have reached the 200 hour mark as yet.

[Vinnie R.]

All,

Update - I am backlogged well into October with new LFP-V Edition orders and upgrades.  I want to thank you all again for your excitement and support.  I know the backlog seems a little long (and it is growing every day from both distributors and customers), but I am very confident that you will find the LFP-V Edition (for all RWA components) to be well-worth the wait!   

For every component, the improvement is substantial!  More substantial than when upgrading from the Sig 30 to the Sig 30.2 (and that was quite the improvement back then) - All our products greatly benefit from this upgrade, and I can't imagine any upgrade that will bring more bang-for-your-buck to your system! 

Seeing as I oddly possess an Isabellina and Isabella, I was wondering if you feel it would be worthwhile to add the tube buffer to the Isabellina. I ask because most of your customers have the in-built DAC in the Isabella. Would the extra tube buffer be a meaningful addition? Have you tested this iteration as yet?

Hi adamaley,

Good question, and yes, I have tested both.  The Isabellina LFP-V Edition dac feeding the Isabella LFP-V Edition preamp does sound the best and offers the following advantages:

- Even more ability to fine tune the sound via tube rolling for each unit, and via interconnects. 
- Separate LiFePO4 battery per unit -> better isolation

All the sonic improvements mentioned on the LFP-V page (http://www.redwineaudio.com/products/lfpv-edition) add together and it gets better!  I wouldn't say it sounds twice as good, but it is very easy to hear and enjoy.

But having them all-in-one (in the Isabella preamp) offers :

- Less complexity (no interconnects needed, one-box solution, one charger)
- Lower cost
- Still sounds fantastic!!!

I would assume the switch to the the new improved battery will benefit the amplifiers more than anything else in the chain. I figure, better, faster delivery of power will be more sonically evident there. Kindly advise on what you think, which of Isabellina, Isabella or your amps would benefit the most to begin with?

As mentioned above, every RWA component benefits in a big way - but if you could only start with one, I would say go for the amp(s) first.

Also, would you say the added tube buffer to your amps render it more or less in the tube-amp-sounding class. I know one wouldn't want to pidgeon-hole the attributes here, but some descriptive impressions here would help guide many towards synergy.

Yes, more in the tube-amp sounding class - but not overly "tubey" at all, and the sound actually gains a lot of sonic improvements that I list here: http://www.redwineaudio.com/products/lfpv-edition

Also - I think it is worth pointing out that tube preamps and amps can all sound quite different, just like solid-state gear can sound quite different.  I've heard tubed gear that sounded much more "solid-state like" and solid-state gear that sound much more tube-like.  So it gets tricky when defining gear to sound "like tubes" or "like solid-state."  There are so many different tube and solid-state topologies, and many other factors such as the power source, components used in the circuit, etc. really come into play as well...

I know that answers will arise with time. One thing I count on is that I trust Vinnie's ear and i am excited that a manufacturer will not rest on his laurels. I'm glad already-existing products can be improved upon. In this industry, you could easily have rebranded the products, smacked an absurd price increase on them and there would have been less hoopla about resale value. I simply hope that I am able to perceive as much of the additional performance you feel these upgrades will make.

Thank you - and YES - you will very easily be able to perceive what the LFP-V Edition is all about.  This is NOT an "incremental" improvement - it's smokin' good! 

ellas, I'm sure a few of you have reached the 200 hour mark as yet.

Here is the deal - I'm still working on upgrades for customers from the initial batch (which is quite small based on the amount of parts I had).  I am waiting for parts from some suppliers for the next batches (which are quite large!) and should have everything ready to go full steam ahead in early September.  So except A LOT of feedback in September, October, and beyond...

Thanks again for all your support and patience during this very busy time!

Vinnie

PS: My wife is expecting our second daughter in late-August / early-September.  I'll be away from work for a few days when this happens, and then will be back int the swing of things.  I'll also be attending RMAF in mid-October....

I mentioned earlier this year that 2010 was going to be a busy year.  I was not joking around (moved Red Wine Audio, moved homes, baby on the way, LFP-V Editions, RMAF, and more....).