[dlparker]

"Long time drooler, first time buyer" waiting on my first AVA product, the used Pat-5/FET-II preamp.  Trying to decide on my next - DAC or power amp?  These days I do most of my music listening live on stage (5-10 gigs/month), but at home it's headphones (alleged Sennheiser CX-300 earbuds purchased off eBay or ancient Koss PortaPro Jrs) and almost always mp3s, either from (legally purchased!) downloads or existing CDs, LPs, or OTA recordings through my computer or mp3 player, usually for the purpose of learning and or transcribing material.  I've just moved, and I'm getting my new work area set up, and I'm leaning towards a DAC.   The used Omega III looks perfect.  I'm keeping an eye on the used "Omega 2 260 HC" on eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/Van-Alstine-/220642405052?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335f4feabc), though, but until I'm ready to upgrade my speakers (pair of 30 or so year-old HH Scott Model 166s) a new power amp doesn't make much sense. 

So here's where I am: 

Anxiously awaiting the Pat-5/FET-II and planning next acquisition - probably the Omega III DAC - that's a great price. 

Which would beg the question - What digital source?  Answer - sound card.  My question to the forum:

What linux compatible sound card would you recommend to pair with the Pat-5/FET-II and Omega III DAC?

Any other comments greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[newzooreview]

What amplifier do you currently use?

Do you use an iPod? I might start with an iPod line out adapter (analog straight from the iPod DAC, avoiding the cheap little headphone amp):

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=108&cp_id=10831&cs_id=1083101&p_id=6225&seq=1&format=2

And a 3.5mm female to RCA cable:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10218&cs_id=1021804&p_id=5612&seq=1&format=2

For about $4 plus shipping you'll be feeding your stereo directly from the iPod. You'll be missing little sound quality given that your source material is MP3s or OTA recordings. The iPod is a pretty good source for a mid-fi system.

If you definitely want to run the system from your Linux computer, SPDIF sound cards for a Linux system are $100 to $150 alone. If your source material is MP3s, I would think that setup would be easier with a USB DAC like the HRT Music Streamer. For the cost of the sound card you'll have a DAC that connects directly to the USB port:

http://www.amazon.com/HRT-Music-Streamer-II-Resolution/dp/B0038O4UFQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1280189483&sr=1-1

The AVA DAC is no doubt terrific, but for your application (constraints on source material and downstream components) you may want to consider other options as well.

[gjs_cds]

I'd buy the AVA amp before the DAC, w/o question.  And I feel confident Frank would agree.  Just more bang for your buck.  I had NO CLUE what my electrostatics could do prior to his amp, and then pre-amp...

[gjs_cds]

NewZoo:

Wish I would have read your post before I spent the 30 bucks for the exact same kind of product at headphone.com.

So it really does bypass the volume control?  It's a true line-out?  Because even my apple dock isn't...it's still subject to my volume control...

[newzooreview]

NewZoo:

Wish I would have read your post before I spent the 30 bucks for the exact same kind of product at headphone.com.

So it really does bypass the volume control?  It's a true line-out?  Because even my apple dock isn't...it's still subject to my volume control...

I haven't tried it--all the reviews on monoprice refer to it as a line-out connector and as sounding much better than the headphone jack. It seems like the ticket to me. The iPod certainly offers a line output through the dock connector--SendStation makes a higher-priced connector that accesses it.

I've bought a bunch of stuff from MonoPrice, and the quality is good and the price is right.

[dlparker]

Currently I've got an old Onkyo TX-800 2 channel receiver that I got off eBay for 20 or 30 bucks.  One of the first things I'm going to do when I get the Pat-5/FET-II is reinstall my M-Audio Audiophile 2496 into my linux system and run the RCA outs into the preamp, and start comparing vinyl (25-30 year-old Denon DF-30L/Grado M+ combo), CD (Sony CDP-250Z) to various digital sources from PC.  This will test what I'm sure is the weakest component in my audio system - my ears.  I'm 64, had bad ear infections as an infant (through early adolescence), have played with some pretty loud drummers, and sat through an entire Grand Funk Railroad concert in 1969 or 1970 (don't ask me why).  I still like to play loud, but almost everybody I've ever played with thinks I'm a rarity - a guitar player that you have to tell: "Turn up!  I can't hear you!"  This whole experiment may be over with the first round of tests, though, depending on what my ears tell me.  They may tell me - "Get an ear transplant and then start over."

I'm leaning towards the DAC next for the simple reason that I don't see any point in getting a new power amp until I get some new speakers.  I'm thinking Ascend CBM-170s, or maybe Nate's Audio T5s.  Assuming my ears aren't totally blown.

[floresjc]

Well seeing as you use headphones most of the time, I would think the DAC makes the most sense, it can be used whether you are on the old speakers your phones. If the purchase of the speakers was imminent or fairly short in coming, then maybe the amp would be a nice match. I just can't seeing blowing good money on an amp that wouldn't see much use as compared to a DAC that you would use all the time.

[avahifi]

Note that in the Dyna Pat-5 chassis, the headphones are driven by a connected power amplifier.  The preamp provides a built in high quality speaker selector switch accessed by the right most front panel switch and amplifier output level binding posts on the back panel for left and right amp in, and two sets of amplifier outputs.  This allows switching between two sets of speakers or both sets at the same time, or speakers off for headphone use only.

Obviously a power amplifier must be connected back to the preamp speaker switcher section to power headphones.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

P.S. We did not try to duplicate this in new production simply because the switch and hardware necessary are more expensive than a good internal headphone driver circuit and is less convenient to connect and use. 

[dlparker]

For now, I'm just excited about finally taking the plunge after all these years.  I'll build the system one piece at a time depending on what's available, what my budget allows, and what my ears tell me.  And as I said above, my ears are the weak link, so if I stay at what I consider to be "entry level", it won't be because of any lack of confidence in AVA products or the opinions in these forums.

Thanks, Frank!

[dB Cooper]

I would say that buying an AVA DAC to listen to MP3s is like putting Pirelli tires on a Toyota Echo.

Your system- any system- cannot sound better than the source material you feed it, so I would start with the admittedly tedious task of re-ripping your CDs to lossless formats like FLAC before dropping $$$$ on expensive sound cards and DACs. The lossy format downloads I wouldn't worry about. If the majority of your music is in such formats, higher quality equipment is only going to ruthlessly reveal the limitations of the source material. Contrary to industry propaganda, you can't throw away 90% of the data and maintain the same quality, although a 320K AAC file can sound better than it has a right to. Just my 2 cents.

By the way, I looked into the M-Audio DAC you mentioned. It is a 1-bit, or "Bitstream", aka "sigma-delta" DAC. For a very thorough discussion of the sound reproduction capabilities of this type DAC, click here. A Behringer UCA-202 soundcard, which is a true 16 bit DAC, would probably spank it, assuming good source material.

[gjs_cds]

I agree with you in theory, but it's also been my experience that my Insight DAC allows listening to MP3s more tolerable.  And it's darn convenient to out 8 albums on one DVD.

[dlparker]

That's why my first tests are going to involve source material.  I've got duplicates of a few favorite LPs, the "drugstore" edition and a Mobile Fidelity version.  I've managed to keep almost all of my LPs in pretty pristine condition, especially the Mobile Fidelity ones, so that should tell me something.  I've also got some CD/LP duplicates, so I'll compare those as well.  Then if I get encouraging results (i.e., my ears prove to be good for more than helping my glasses stay on) I'll start with the various conversion formats. 

This afternoon I finally got back to work, breaking down a new tune (for us - Betty Wright's "Cleanup Woman").  Trying to parse out all the parts -  3 or 4 piece horn section, at least 3 electric guitars and electric bass just for starters - and come up with something a three piece rhythm section (elec guitar and bass, drums) can cover the basics on is quite a challenge for me.  On tunes like this one where I have trouble distinguishing critical parts I'm eager to find out if going from the original source material (well, original in the consumer sense - I'd love to get my hands on some of the masters) through quality components like Frank's is going to be overkill given the state of my ears. 

[dlparker]

dB - thanks for the link on conversion techniques.  I'm going to take this one (baby) step at a time, and if my ears are up to the task I'll replace my m-Audio.

[dlparker]

OK, dB...  help me out here.  I glanced at the article in the link, then printed it and several others out and read them right before I went to bed last night.  The article in the link (conversion techniques - R2R vs. sigma-delta, etc.), I read first.  Made perfect sense to me, but then I went to the BYOB amp article, where the guy started talking about good sounding wood and binding circuit boards to wood in a power amp.  The DC vs. AC part I got, but I haven't paid much attention to that since for all practical purposes (I think it was) Edison and Tesla settled that a while back (am I right on that?).  I'll start worrying about filtering and conditioning the power source if my ears pass the first few tests.

But the right wood for a power amp? 

Another thing that hit me that I'd been overlooking is the A2D part.  All this focus on power amp vs DAC, and I haven't been paying any attention at all to how the analog signal got digitized in the first place.  I think once I read Frank's comments (in the late 80s/early 90s???) conceding that maybe this digital audio thing could actually sound like music under the right circumstances I stopped looking real closely at that debate. 

For now I'm looking at power amps and eagerly awaiting the arrival of my PAT5/FET-II,  and  I'm pumped!

[dB Cooper]

I agree with you in theory, but it's also been my experience that my Insight DAC allows listening to MP3s more tolerable.  And it's darn convenient to out 8 albums on one DVD.

A DVD will easily hold 8 albums, and usually more, in lossless formats. More on a dual layer (8.5GB vs 4.7).

I agree that worrying about the wood used for the case of a power amp is silly. Everybody knows the critical element is the color of the power supply capacitors   

Jealous of your PAT-5 find; have fun with it!

[dlparker]

Thanks dB!  I'm really looking forward to this.  I may not have much to say over the next week or so, but once I get my hands on the preamp and get a suitable power amp and get things set up and tested, I'll know something for sure. I'll definitely have some things to say after that.  I just checked the ringing in my ears (constant for as long as I can remember) and as nearly as I can tell it's around 1,661 CPS or so, right around two octaves above the fourth fret Ab on the high E string of a guitar in standard tuning (assuming A440).  Haven't really done any research into tinnitus, but this is the main thing I'm worried about with regard to my ears and the ability to evaluate the equipment.

[PMAT]

Ah, the can of worms. Not blown speakers.... blown eardrums.  You simply must play with speakers that flatten out your ear response. This is so freaking great on a forum where the majority of the content is about the absence of coloration. You will need color. You are the new guinea pig for speakers that sound right for YOUR EARS! No flat response speakers for you. Get some great sounding speakers (to you) and the rest is less complicated. Or, equalize to your hearts content.    No one talks about ears much but I think ears vary more than equipment. Above all, have fun.

[newzooreview]

Ah, the can of worms. Not blown speakers.... blown eardrums.  You simply must play with speakers that flatten out your ear response. This is so freaking great on a forum where the majority of the content is about the absence of coloration. You will need color. You are the new guinea pig for speakers that sound right for YOUR EARS! No flat response speakers for you. Get some great sounding speakers (to you) and the rest is less complicated. Or, equalize to your hearts content.    No one talks about ears much but I think ears vary more than equipment. Above all, have fun.

Frankly I'm always very curious about the opinions that musicians have about audio equipment. They have a very well-honed sense of what real music sounds like. I don't know if the tinnitus obliterates all of that trained understanding. When my A/C kicks on I wouldn't be able to judge subtle differences between tweeter designs, but everything that really matters in music is still audible.

[turkey]

Frankly I'm always very curious about the opinions that musicians have about audio equipment. They have a very well-honed sense of what real music sounds like. I don't know if the tinnitus obliterates all of that trained understanding. When my A/C kicks on I wouldn't be able to judge subtle differences between tweeter designs, but everything that really matters in music is still audible.

I've noticed that they tend to either not care about the equipment, or they regard the equipment as tone controls/effects processors.

Many musicians are happy with very low-fi equipment because they seem to be able to listen beyond the equipment to what the performer actually was doing.

Other musicians like a pleasing tone and don't seem as concerned about fidelity or accuracy.

I have a modest amount of experience musically, plus I've worked in the studio and in live sound. I don't like coloration and have found that I generally prefer to hear a bad recording as it is, rather than attempting to somehow "fix" or "sweeten" it or something. A recording is a finished artistic performance, and I prefer to hear it that way, warts and all.

I'm not sure what this says about musicians or myself.

I will say that it seems that Frank typically goes for a very neutral sound, or when a choice has to be made he goes for something slightly euphonic rather than discordant.

Having said that, I do wish that I had purchased my AVA preamp with tone controls. It would be nice to have the option to use them if I wished to. It wouldn't be very often, but it's better to have the option than not - as long as it can be completely disabled when you don't want it.

I would never purchase one flawed component to attempt to fix the sound of another flawed component. I'm not a believer in "synergy" or whatever you want to call it. If a preamp had a coloration, I'd look for a new preamp, not look for an amp with the "opposite" coloration in a futile attempt to somehow balance things out and arrive back at neutrality.

[dlparker]

I've noticed that they tend to either not care about the equipment, or they regard the equipment as tone controls/effects processors.

Many musicians are happy with very low-fi equipment because they seem to be able to listen beyond the equipment to what the performer actually was doing.

Other musicians like a pleasing tone and don't seem as concerned about fidelity or accuracy.

I have a modest amount of experience musically, plus I've worked in the studio and in live sound. I don't like coloration and have found that I generally prefer to hear a bad recording as it is, rather than attempting to somehow "fix" or "sweeten" it or something. A recording is a finished artistic performance, and I prefer to hear it that way, warts and all.

I'm not sure what this says about musicians or myself.

I will say that it seems that Frank typically goes for a very neutral sound, or when a choice has to be made he goes for something slightly euphonic rather than discordant.

Having said that, I do wish that I had purchased my AVA preamp with tone controls. It would be nice to have the option to use them if I wished to. It wouldn't be very often, but it's better to have the option than not - as long as it can be completely disabled when you don't want it.

I would never purchase one flawed component to attempt to fix the sound of another flawed component. I'm not a believer in "synergy" or whatever you want to call it. If a preamp had a coloration, I'd look for a new preamp, not look for an amp with the "opposite" coloration in a futile attempt to somehow balance things out and arrive back at neutrality.

In my case, I'm going for that place in "Never Never Land" where nothing exists but me and the music.  Some people think I'm a musician - I tell them "No, I'm a music junkie, looking for my next fix."  I know I have physical limitations I have to work around (ears), but I've found no better "high" than being with a other musicians (or music junkies) and playing music and nothing exists but the music and you're really not even aware of physically participating.  In my 64 years I've tried a lot of delivery mechanisms for various "highs".  I realized in the mid 70s that the best was music, even though I continued to be a hard core "juicer" (current recovering alcoholic) for another 6-8 years.  Today I sometimes worry that I drink to much coffee.

Too much coffee??  Need another cup...  Must have juice of magic bean...

As you can see from the above brain dump, I've probably already had enough.  Sorry about that.  I realize this is way too much information for a lot of folks...