A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.

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DanTheMan

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Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #20 on: 23 Jul 2010, 10:11 pm »
I agree Paul.  That's why I get pissed.  I have purposefully gone out of my way to make sure people's feelings weren't hurt.  Still, I have been on the receiving end of personal attacks from people I have never met, heard of, or even commented about or knew of their existence prior to their attacks.  It's childish BS.

You can tell Danny is having PMs with Werd by his last post.  Come on Danny--your better than that crap I thought.  My current system is listed in the thread that stemmed this post.  I thought you had read it.

All my goodness that guy yammers on with no data except what he claims.  I'm 7 minutes into it and it's tough to complete, but I will.  Why not just show the data?  Seems suspicious to me.  If you got it, flaunt it.  The things he is claiming have been well known for many, many years.  Same effects exist in cable.  Every musician whose been around a while knows that.  Note, you can make a component bad enough and torture it enough that it should be able to be heard.  The link I provide will show some ways in which you can do this.  Decent stuff in normal use and your good to go.

Here's some quick data:
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_caps.htm

Dan

Danny Richie

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #21 on: 23 Jul 2010, 10:25 pm »
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I agree Paul.  That's why I get pissed.  I have purposefully gone out of my way to make sure people's feelings weren't hurt.  Still, I have been on the receiving end of personal attacks from people I have never met, heard of, or even commented about or knew of their existence prior to their attacks.  It's childish BS.

Hey man, no one here has made any personal attacks.

Some people (mainly myself) are going out of their way just so you can learn something valuable. All you have to do is be willing to participate.

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You can tell Danny is having PMs with Werd by his last post.  Come on Danny--your better than that crap I thought.


I have not exchanged ANY PM's with Werd.

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Here's some quick data:
http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_caps.htm


Dan, those test don't mean anything. I can conduct those same test and get those same results. Or conduct them in a way that I get accurate results.

Danny Richie

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #22 on: 23 Jul 2010, 11:13 pm »
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My current system is listed in the thread that stemmed this post.  I thought you had read it.

I just skimmed through it again but did not see it. Can you post it again please?

I did find this response from you:

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FWIW, I'd be more than happy to participate, but alas not so happy as to pay for a flight.


It was in regard to me asking this:

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Anybody want to set up a comparison of two otherwise identical speakers (the ones we've been talking about) and have a small group over for listening.


Now that there is a possibility that a listening comparative can be set up in your own home town has your tune changed? You did not answer when I asked you in my post before the last.

werd

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #23 on: 23 Jul 2010, 11:41 pm »
Hi Danny

He is just using me as a scapegoat to slither out of this. He doesnt want to take you up on it because it sits in the face of his BS.  He is a like a cheap and cheerful jedi for boxstore gear. He believes that we are all waisting are money in this hobby. But some how he seems to have found an audience in the lab.

DTM I find it amusing that you think i could influence Danny on anything. First i don't even know him (at all). and secondly he is so seated in his profession that there is no way that i could get him to do anything that he doesn't agree with on this topic. So no, i have never PM him about anything and if i did i wouldn't waiste our  time talking about you.

cujobob

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Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #24 on: 23 Jul 2010, 11:47 pm »
This is seriously way too serious.

werd

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #25 on: 23 Jul 2010, 11:49 pm »
This is seriously way too serious.

Yah i know, sorry about that.....  :icon_lol:

DanTheMan

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Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #26 on: 24 Jul 2010, 12:34 am »
Yes Danny, I'll take part in a listening experiment.  I mentioned it already.  Sorry I didn't feel the need to repeat myself.   :wink:

My current system, I guess behrs :icon_lol: repeating, is centered around an HK3390 and these Behringers.  :wink:

Dan

sts9fan

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #27 on: 24 Jul 2010, 01:07 am »
Werds last post needs to go. He is out to get Dan for some reason.

Danny Richie

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #28 on: 24 Jul 2010, 01:21 am »
Okay, now we are getting somewhere. No more jousting. Dan has agreed to play. Let's see what we can learn, and just maybe others can learn something as well. Maybe we all learn something, even if it's just about each other.

Speakers will be here next week I would imagine.

Let's see how they really measure.

Then let's see how much better it gets with upgraded parts. 

Danny Richie

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #29 on: 24 Jul 2010, 01:25 am »
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Werds last post needs to go. He is out to get Dan for some reason.


His last post said:

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Yah i know, sorry about that..... 


That one is fine.

The one before that was a little to the edge. So was an earlier one of Dan's. They may have each said some things that may not look too good now.

So would anyone who has posted in this thread so far like to edit anything in their own post?

dvenardos

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #30 on: 24 Jul 2010, 02:02 am »
 :thumb:  This is going to be fun!

Okay, now we are getting somewhere. No more jousting. Dan has agreed to play. Let's see what we can learn, and just maybe others can learn something as well. Maybe we all learn something, even it is just about each other.

Speakers will be here next week I would imagine.

Let's see how they really measure.

Then let's see how much better it gets with upgraded parts.

DanTheMan

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Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #31 on: 24 Jul 2010, 04:05 am »
Hey man, no one here has made any personal attacks.
Why do I get the impression that won't make much of an impression, on him. Everyone who picks up a soldering iron, and now a "DIY FFT", is an expert on speaker design and measurement. Yeah, right..............

Good luck, ol' buddy. You are going to need it with this dude.

Pat
Dan, those test don't mean anything. I can conduct those same test and get those same results. Or conduct them in a way that I get accurate results.
 
I'm looking forward to your way to get accurate results.  I actually would like to learn something other than something about your psychology.  I agreed to such a thing straight away.  It's not new.  If your "upgraded" parts measurably change the frequency response then the test is no longer valid.  It needs to be controlled for any sort of validity.  Otherwise we could just add an EQ and see which way we like it. 

Dan

goskers

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Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #32 on: 24 Jul 2010, 04:35 am »
Let's please discuss the conditions surrounding this upcoming event. 

I think we definitely need a controlled double blind setup with a remote ABX switcher, some screen material to block the visibility of each speaker and ideally a rotating table which would place each speaker in the exact same position as the other when active.  Compromises will have to be made but this would help with the scientific validity of such a test.  The more people the merrier of course.

As Dan stated before, the modified speaker must measure the same at all angles as the stock variant.  This is critical to this design as the dispersion characteristics make this speaker 'well engineered' imho.

My .02

TRADERXFAN

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Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #33 on: 24 Jul 2010, 05:28 am »
I would suggest not doing anything to the cabinet itself for the test comparison. Although that may have been intended to be left constant.

DanTheMan

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Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #34 on: 24 Jul 2010, 05:43 am »
Even having different speakers would make the test invalid.  The speaker would need both crossovers and a switch connected to a remote ABX switcher.

Dan

TRADERXFAN

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Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #35 on: 24 Jul 2010, 05:51 am »
Also you cant do this sort of thing in a hostile environment. It needs to be held with open and friendly people, otherwise its potentially going to be too distracting to pickup on nuances. already being held in a new space would likely be hard to acclimate oneself to it.

The music has to be very well known to the listener in order for it to be irrelevant. or there would have to be sounds or signals that would be neutral enough. 

-The above comes from having gone to someone elses highly tuned system in an entirely new environment and trying to compare a dac. To a couple people familiar with that system, differences were immediately obvious that were difficult for me to pick up on. I think part of it was that I felt there was a bit of an expectaion for me to hear these distinctions, which was a distraction from the mental process required. After that experience I had occassion to compare a new cd player to a dac in my home and I had to go back and forth several times with a very small short piece of materials to try and tease out the nuances. But I was able to do it.  Of course this kind of evaluation may be easier for other folks to do than myself.  I do think there is some practice needed to learn how to retain a mental state to "listen for" things.  This test may not really be as productive as it is hoped by some.
The speaker is the most critical component and I could imaine that the differences could be a lot more noticible than my experience in trying to differentiate one high quality digital source component from another, though.

K Shep

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #36 on: 24 Jul 2010, 05:57 am »
Also you cant do this sort of thing in a hostile environment. It needs to be held with open and friendly people, otherwise its potentially going to be too distracting to pickup on nuances. already being held in a new space would likely be hard to acclimate oneself to it.

The music has to be very well known to the listener in order for it to be irrelevant. or there would have to be sounds or signals that would be neutral enough. 

-The above comes from having gone to someone elses highly tuned system in an entirely new environment and trying to compare a dac. To a couple people familiar with that system, differences were immediately obvious that were difficult for me to pick up on. I think part of it was that I felt there was a bit of an expectaion for me to hear these distinctions, which was a distraction from the mental process required. After that experience I had occassion to compare a new cd player to a dac in my home and I had to go back and forth several times with a very small short piece of materials to try and tease out the nuances. But I was able to do it.  Of course this kind of evaluation may be easier for other folks to do than myself.  I do think there is some practice needed to learn how to retain a mental state to "listen for" things.  This test may not really be as productive as it is hoped by some.
The speaker is the most critical component and I could imaine that the differences could be a lot more noticible than my experience in trying to differentiate one high quality digital source component from another, though.

I am willing to bring the speakers to a few of the Bay Area AC members homes.  That will give each individual the opportunity to compare in a familiar environment.

Not a perfect solution but makes for an intereting comparison.  If I am involved , we will have fun and I won't get involved it ain't friendly.  :D

goskers

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Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #37 on: 24 Jul 2010, 06:16 am »
As long as the only thing changing is the crossover components then being familiar with the recording and environment shouldn't matter. The whole point of this test is to verify if reliable, blind differences can be discerned from an identical measuring set of speakers with two different sets of crossovers.

I agree with Dan as to having one set of speakers with two different sets of crossovers on a remote switch. This will take the possibility of driver variation and more importantly, room position out of the mix.

HAL

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Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #38 on: 24 Jul 2010, 02:11 pm »
According to my tracking info the B2031P's should be at Danny's on 28 July.  :thumb:

Will be fun reading about what the measurement and listening sessions findings.  :D   

jtwrace

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Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #39 on: 24 Jul 2010, 02:16 pm »
What is the estimated cost of the upgraded parts that Danny will put in?