New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?

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jhm731

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #20 on: 9 Sep 2010, 05:56 pm »
My friend had the early 2009 MacMini and a Cary DAC.  He drives it with the Hi-Face USB converter.  He upgraded to the 2010 MacMini and he said the difference was noticeable.

He sold me his 2009 MacMini (which I now use for non-music server things) and he says the $300 upgrade cost was well worth it.

If both Minis are outputting a bit perfect data stream(same playback software) into an Asynchronous USB or Firewire DAC that is properly isolated from any PC noise, why should the 2010 Mini sound better?

highfilter

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #21 on: 9 Sep 2010, 06:06 pm »
My friend had the early 2009 MacMini and a Cary DAC.  He drives it with the Hi-Face USB converter.  He upgraded to the 2010 MacMini and he said the difference was noticeable.

He sold me his 2009 MacMini (which I now use for non-music server things) and he says the $300 upgrade cost was well worth it.

I recently just got a Mac Mini 2010 and was wondering if you, or anyone else, have compared the USB directly to a DAC, versus the HiFace (or any other device) in between the DAC. I have been trying the USB direct from my Mac Mini to my W4S DAC-2 and the sound quality is nowhere near the quality of my stock Squeezebox Touch with Black Cat SPDIF cable. I suspect the USB cable I am using (just a generic one off Monoprice) is probably part of the issue and I have ordered the Essential USB cable from DB Audio Labs - but even using a generic SPDIF cable on my Squeezebox Touch sounds better than the Mac Mini using USB. I have applied all the circulating tweaks for the Mac Mini as well.

I'll report back once I get the Essential USB cable. I'm also looking into a newer firmware version for my W4S DAC-2, since I don't think I have the latest firmware update that they did and are sending out replacement covers for.

Just looking for others experience with different connection methods.

Thanks.

skunark

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Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #22 on: 9 Sep 2010, 06:14 pm »
Have you tried using the optical output on the mac mini? 

Benchmark has a several tips on their wiki on how to get bit-transparent playback with Mac OSX.
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/OS_X_Audio_Playback_-_Setup_Guide

kenreau

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #23 on: 9 Sep 2010, 06:20 pm »
Has anyone confirmed that a 2010 Mini sounds better than a 2009 Mini
using a DAC other than the Tranquility?

I got this response from Gordon Rankin.

Kenreau,

I have 3 of them the latest is definatley the best


I have three different 4 USB port models Mini's. The first 2 have 120-128gb SSD and 4 gigs of memory my new one has an OCZ Verter+ Agility 200G drive and 8 gigs of memory and it out preformas all the others hands down. I even upgraded my 2008 model to a 2.6GHz Core 2 Duo and this one at 2.4G is faster.

I am still running in 32 bit mode but want to try 64 bit soon.

I do not have the 5 USB port model but people that have that one seem to have a lot of problems.

Thanks
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin


Sounds like the consensus is building.

Kenreau

dmccombs

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #24 on: 9 Sep 2010, 06:21 pm »
If both Minis are outputting a bit perfect data stream(same playback software) into an Asynchronous USB or Firewire DAC that is properly isolated from any PC noise, why should the 2010 Mini sound better?

The power supplies are VERY different in these two models.  The 2010 model has a much quieter noise floor.

highfilter

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #25 on: 9 Sep 2010, 06:23 pm »
Have you tried using the optical output on the mac mini? 

Benchmark has a several tips on their wiki on how to get bit-transparent playback with Mac OSX.
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/OS_X_Audio_Playback_-_Setup_Guide

There is no optical out on the new Mac Mini. It seems they replaced it and combined audio-out with the HDMI.

srb

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #26 on: 9 Sep 2010, 06:31 pm »
There is no optical out on the new Mac Mini. It seems they replaced it and combined audio-out with the HDMI.

There is no separate Toslink optical output, but the new Mini does have the combination analog/digital output jack like the MacBook laptops.  You would need a Toslink to mini-plug optical cable.
 
Steve

jhm731

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #27 on: 9 Sep 2010, 06:32 pm »
The power supplies are VERY different in these two models.  The 2010 model has a much quieter noise floor.

Once again, If both Minis are outputting a bit perfect data stream(same playback software) into an Asynchronous USB or Firewire DAC that is properly isolated from any PC noise, why should this matter?

dmccombs

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #28 on: 9 Sep 2010, 06:45 pm »
Once again, If both Minis are outputting a bit perfect data stream(same playback software) into an Asynchronous USB or Firewire DAC that is properly isolated from any PC noise, why should this matter?

The bold section above is the issue.  The output is not perfectly isolated from noise and so in the real world, power supply implementations do matter.  Hopefully some electrical engineers can help further with your question as to why makers can not perfectly isolate the noise.

LejfK

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #29 on: 11 Sep 2010, 04:10 pm »
Oh great MacMini gurus.   :notworthy:  I think I'll be setting up a Mini soon to do music service duties along with some light HTPC work.  I know everyone here recommends having the music on a separate drive connected via firewire.  How about having the music on a NAS?  I'm leaning towards the NAS because I have gigabyte routers everywhere and I could also use the NAS for TimeMachine duties.

skunark

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Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #30 on: 11 Sep 2010, 05:50 pm »
Your time machine drive needs to be separate from your data drives if you truly want to backup your music library.    With large libraries you might be disappointed with the NAS performance even with a gigabit network, but this all depends on the performance of the NAS box.

LejfK

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #31 on: 12 Sep 2010, 01:49 am »
Your time machine drive needs to be separate from your data drives if you truly want to backup your music library.    With large libraries you might be disappointed with the NAS performance even with a gigabit network, but this all depends on the performance of the NAS box.

Could you explain more? Right now I have the music on a external drive attached to an Imac via firewire and I'm streaming into the main system via a squeezebox duet.  The Imac is leaving with my roommate, so I plan on moving to a mac mini server tied directly into the main system (which is not going anywhere).  So, in addition to issues with configuring TimeMachine on a NAS along with music library, you say I could have performance issues?  We're talking about 260 gigs of apple lossless music.  Some of the NAS's I'm looking at advertise their ability to act as ITunes music servers, like the Synology DS410j.  Thanks for the feedback.

skunark

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Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #32 on: 12 Sep 2010, 07:19 am »
Not all NAS boxes are created equal, and the performance of the network card and drivers are limited compared to a mac mini or a respectable desktop.  It's the difference between an ARM processor with an inexpensive NIC, vs an Intel processor with NIC that can offload the processor.   Both will get the job done, but one will do it a lot faster.

I've found that two external mobile drives are ideal over the various NAS solutions I've tried.   I prefer the mobile drives since they tend to be silent and without wall-warts.   I now have one drive for the music and another for the Time Machine and decided to setup an offsite backup solution (backblaze).  I consider this a less expensive, more flexible, more reliable and easier solution than a NAS if you allow your mac mini to perform the role as a file server and a source.     

My mac mini strictly is a file server though, most here on AC seem to use it as a source.   To play the role of the source, have a few airport expresses, apple tvs and a Wadia iTransport all with different roles and with different results.   So now the solution isn't as cheap and some solutions still stream the music...

When more high-res music becomes available, I will probably pick up a second mac mini to be a dedicated source or consider something like the Bryston BDP-1 which needs to be both user friendly and support the major lossless formats.   

LejfK

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #33 on: 12 Sep 2010, 03:51 pm »
Not all NAS boxes are created equal, and the performance of the network card and drivers are limited compared to a mac mini or a respectable desktop.  It's the difference between an ARM processor with an inexpensive NIC, vs an Intel processor with NIC that can offload the processor.   Both will get the job done, but one will do it a lot faster.

I've found that two external mobile drives are ideal over the various NAS solutions I've tried.   I prefer the mobile drives since they tend to be silent and without wall-warts.   I now have one drive for the music and another for the Time Machine and decided to setup an offsite backup solution (backblaze).  I consider this a less expensive, more flexible, more reliable and easier solution than a NAS if you allow your mac mini to perform the role as a file server and a source.     

My mac mini strictly is a file server though, most here on AC seem to use it as a source.   To play the role of the source, have a few airport expresses, apple tvs and a Wadia iTransport all with different roles and with different results.   So now the solution isn't as cheap and some solutions still stream the music...

When more high-res music becomes available, I will probably pick up a second mac mini to be a dedicated source or consider something like the Bryston BDP-1 which needs to be both user friendly and support the major lossless formats.

Very helpful.  Thanks.

jwes

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #34 on: 20 Sep 2010, 04:51 am »
Hi everyone,

Couldn't tell from the Rankin post above if performance was due to the 2010 model or a SSD.  Any thoughts?  I will build from latest model but wonder if a SSD will make the difference I think it should (no whirring physical/electromag, etc...). Or would more $$ put into the power supply be a better bet?

Thanks in advance!

Jim

kenreau

Re: New 2010 vs 2009 Mac Mini for an upgrade?
« Reply #35 on: 21 Sep 2010, 05:36 am »
Hi everyone,

Couldn't tell from the Rankin post above if performance was due to the 2010 model or a SSD.  Any thoughts?  I will build from latest model but wonder if a SSD will make the difference I think it should (no whirring physical/electromag, etc...). Or would more $$ put into the power supply be a better bet?

Thanks in advance!

Jim

Jim,

I've read a number of reasons, probably best summarized by Darrells comment.

The power supplies are VERY different in these two models.  The 2010 model has a much quieter noise floor.


The SSD and 4 to 8GBs of ram, software optimization/minimization, playback software (PM or Amarra) all also contribute to some degree.  There is a thread in the db Audio Labs DAC review comments around Sept 8th that cover this topic.  Quote from dBe "The stock 2010 Mini is better than a tweaked prior configuration and a fully tweaked 2010 is amazing"  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=74816.20

I'm headed down this path myself, just not there yet so I can't speak from personal experience yet.

Ciao
Kenreau