Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. Read 12821 times.

KnowTalent

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 296
  • ...stuck in the middle with you
Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« on: 11 Jul 2010, 07:07 pm »
Given Bryston amps have the ability to choose either a 1V or 2V input sensitivity and the output of the BDA/BCD models are fixed at either 2.3V (unbalanced) or 4.6V (balanced)...

Why doesn't Bryston design the amps input sensitivity to better match the output of the BCD/BDA models?

Am I missing something here? because my understanding is lower volume settings on "most" preamps can drop the SNR by 20 to 30db and I'm assuming a 4.6V balanced signal, whether into 1V or 2V, is going to result in a rather low preamp volume setting for most realistic listening situations???

Elizabeth

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2737
  • So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #1 on: 12 Jul 2010, 12:33 am »
RANT: My one MAJOR complaint about my (otherwise wonderful) Bryston BP-26 and Bryston 4B-SST2 pairing is the stupid low volume setting when using a CD (either DAC OR CD player.) When I use the phono (Bryston 1.5) the volume is a comfortable 11 O'Clock to 2 O'Clock position. (and 2 O'Clock is as loud as I would ever, ever put it.
With CD the volume control is a disgusting 7 O'Clock to 8 O'Clock max!!! that just sucks. I mean it STARTS at 7 O'Clock position.
Since I started using a 'VAC Standard' preamp as just a tube buffer for only the digital I do not have a problem, as the VAC volume in combo with the Bryston BP-26 gives both a position of around 9 O'Clock to 10 O'Clock.
(Before i got the VAC I had to stick my old Adcom preamp into the chain at the amp in passive mod JUST to use it's volume control to allow me to use more of the range of my Bryston BP-26. and I got a LOT of heckling from the "moron: we know it all and better than you" crowd for having two preamps daisychained.. I tell you.)
The Bryston BP-26 SHOULD have a SOME inputs with less gain. OR the BP-26 could be factory built with LESS gain as an option, or could be sent in to get less gain as an option.
When I cannot use the volume beyond 8 O'Clock it is annoying, really.
Before The stupid CD standard of FOUR times normal volts of other input devices... I am certain the Brystons were perfect concerning gain. But WITH the CD standard, and the fact many companies are going even higher than 2V in output from CD/DAC devices... I don't know..

werd

Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #2 on: 12 Jul 2010, 12:58 am »
When using my 16volt (lower) gain on my Max bella and with my 2 volt (lower) setting on my 14Bsq i have full use of the volume control. I can turn the volume completely and still have it remain comfortable. I use that setting at nite all the time.

Napalm

Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #3 on: 12 Jul 2010, 02:42 am »
RANT: My one MAJOR complaint about my (otherwise wonderful) Bryston BP-26 and Bryston 4B-SST2 pairing is the stupid low volume setting when using a CD [...] With CD the volume control is a disgusting 7 O'Clock to 8 O'Clock max!!! that just sucks. I mean it STARTS at 7 O'Clock position.[...]

 :lol: Another victim of the "loudness war".....

With properly recorded CDs you'll find around 10-11 o'clock is a comfortable volume.

Nap.

VOLKS

Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #4 on: 12 Jul 2010, 02:51 am »
:lol: Another victim of the "loudness war".....

With properly recorded CDs you'll find around 10-11 o'clock is a comfortable volume.

Nap.


Could not agree more. :thumb:

Elizabeth

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2737
  • So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #5 on: 12 Jul 2010, 04:18 am »
It is true some CDs are MUCH lower volume than others. Problem if I have them in the changer. Suddenly the volume cuts in half. Or DOUBLES from one CD to the next..

vegasdave

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 4039
    • My online rock magazine-Crypt Magazine
Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #6 on: 12 Jul 2010, 04:31 am »
RANT: My one MAJOR complaint about my (otherwise wonderful) Bryston BP-26 and Bryston 4B-SST2 pairing is the stupid low volume setting when using a CD (either DAC OR CD player.) When I use the phono (Bryston 1.5) the volume is a comfortable 11 O'Clock to 2 O'Clock position. (and 2 O'Clock is as loud as I would ever, ever put it.
With CD the volume control is a disgusting 7 O'Clock to 8 O'Clock max!!! that just sucks. I mean it STARTS at 7 O'Clock position.
Since I started using a 'VAC Standard' preamp as just a tube buffer for only the digital I do not have a problem, as the VAC volume in combo with the Bryston BP-26 gives both a position of around 9 O'Clock to 10 O'Clock.
(Before i got the VAC I had to stick my old Adcom preamp into the chain at the amp in passive mod JUST to use it's volume control to allow me to use more of the range of my Bryston BP-26. and I got a LOT of heckling from the "moron: we know it all and better than you" crowd for having two preamps daisychained.. I tell you.)
The Bryston BP-26 SHOULD have a SOME inputs with less gain. OR the BP-26 could be factory built with LESS gain as an option, or could be sent in to get less gain as an option.
When I cannot use the volume beyond 8 O'Clock it is annoying, really.
Before The stupid CD standard of FOUR times normal volts of other input devices... I am certain the Brystons were perfect concerning gain. But WITH the CD standard, and the fact many companies are going even higher than 2V in output from CD/DAC devices... I don't know..

I believe you can have the gain increased on the BP 1.5.

vegasdave

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 4039
    • My online rock magazine-Crypt Magazine
Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #7 on: 12 Jul 2010, 04:32 am »
:lol: Another victim of the "loudness war".....

With properly recorded CDs you'll find around 10-11 o'clock is a comfortable volume.

Nap.

This is true.

Napalm

Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #8 on: 12 Jul 2010, 11:53 am »
It is true some CDs are MUCH lower volume than others. Problem if I have them in the changer. Suddenly the volume cuts in half. [...]

Those are the good ones.  :thumb:

Nap.

Daniel Datchev

Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #9 on: 12 Jul 2010, 12:12 pm »
Hi ,
the problem is headroom. With proper recorded CD there is no problem with the volume. Today albums are awful for the only reason little headroom.  I read somewhere that Roger Water recorded his albums at -18dB and they are just wonderful. Yes high volt may cause problems as there is difference between the levels, but think about noise level and difference between 2 exp 0 and 2 exp 16 you have more 64000 different levels for any possible combination. For that reason I haven' bought the new Metallica album.
Daniel

Napalm

Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #10 on: 12 Jul 2010, 02:04 pm »
Hi ,
the problem is headroom. With proper recorded CD there is no problem with the volume. Today albums are awful for the only reason little headroom.  I read somewhere that Roger Water recorded his albums at -18dB and they are just wonderful. Yes high volt may cause problems as there is difference between the levels, but think about noise level and difference between 2 exp 0 and 2 exp 16 you have more 64000 different levels for any possible combination. For that reason I haven' bought the new Metallica album.
Daniel

I can confirm that Roger Waters albums are properly recorded without the "loudness" thing, you have to turn the volume up high to listen to them, but then the dynamics are wonderful. And "Amused to Death" is a recording masterpiece, surround sound from 2 channels (Q-sound).

I also noticed that for Pink Floyd albums, those where Roger was the main contributor tend to be nicely recorded with good dynamics (e.g. "The Final Cut"), while where David Gilmour was in charge, the recordings tend to have the poor dynamics / gritty, dark, undetailed sound of the "loudness war" era (e.g. "Division Bell"). David's solo albums (e.g. "On an Island") are really bad from this point of view.

I guess there were some fights between Roger and David on recording/mastering. And guess who owns a recording studio now. David.  :duh:

Nap.

95Dyna

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1180
Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #11 on: 12 Jul 2010, 02:52 pm »
RANT: My one MAJOR complaint about my (otherwise wonderful) Bryston BP-26 and Bryston 4B-SST2 pairing is the stupid low volume setting when using a CD (either DAC OR CD player.) When I use the phono (Bryston 1.5) the volume is a comfortable 11 O'Clock to 2 O'Clock position. (and 2 O'Clock is as loud as I would ever, ever put it.
With CD the volume control is a disgusting 7 O'Clock to 8 O'Clock max!!! that just sucks. I mean it STARTS at 7 O'Clock position.
Since I started using a 'VAC Standard' preamp as just a tube buffer for only the digital I do not have a problem, as the VAC volume in combo with the Bryston BP-26 gives both a position of around 9 O'Clock to 10 O'Clock.
(Before i got the VAC I had to stick my old Adcom preamp into the chain at the amp in passive mod JUST to use it's volume control to allow me to use more of the range of my Bryston BP-26. and I got a LOT of heckling from the "moron: we know it all and better than you" crowd for having two preamps daisychained.. I tell you.)
The Bryston BP-26 SHOULD have a SOME inputs with less gain. OR the BP-26 could be factory built with LESS gain as an option, or could be sent in to get less gain as an option.
When I cannot use the volume beyond 8 O'Clock it is annoying, really.
Before The stupid CD standard of FOUR times normal volts of other input devices... I am certain the Brystons were perfect concerning gain. But WITH the CD standard, and the fact many companies are going even higher than 2V in output from CD/DAC devices... I don't know..

Maybe I'm the dumbest guy on this circle but this conversation is baffling to me.  Is this just a 4B/26 problem?  I have 7B's/26 and have played hundreds of CDs and SACD's through the combination and the BP26 volume setting range is normal on all of them (8:00 to 2:00 is usable and comfortable).  As mentioned in other posts there are moderate variations in loudness of the recording but nothing even close to not being able to turn past 8:00. 

werd

Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #12 on: 12 Jul 2010, 03:15 pm »
It would be nice to see a 16/23 db toggle on the bp26 or maybe even an 9 db gain for the 28's. Its makes it easier to partner the big amps with speakers in the 91db sensitivity and over. Or speakers that are low in the 100 to 200 watt power range.

Laundrew

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7176
  • "Sometimes it rains inside my head..."
Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #13 on: 12 Jul 2010, 03:29 pm »
Maybe I'm the dumbest guy on this circle but this conversation is baffling to me.  Is this just a 4B/26 problem?  I have 7B's/26 and have played hundreds of CDs and SACD's through the combination and the BP26 volume setting range is normal on all of them (8:00 to 2:00 is usable and comfortable).  As mentioned in other posts there are moderate variations in loudness of the recording but nothing even close to not being able to turn past 8:00.

For reference, my “6” position as indicated by my volume control (pointing down) on my BP26 is zero. The “8 to 9” position is where I mostly enjoy my music and do not have any issues with this setting. I use the 12 - 3 setting after a fresh dye-job or when I want to “tie-up” my hair - metaphorically speaking of course. Anything past the “3” position is my "undiscovered country" or VNE (Volume Not Exceeded) as I enjoy my pictures hanging on the wall and not lying on the floor.

Be well...

Be well…

Napalm

Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #14 on: 12 Jul 2010, 04:24 pm »
Anything past the “3” position is my "undiscovered country" or VNE (Volume Not Exceeded) as I enjoy my pictures hanging on the wall and not lying on the floor.

Invite Mag for an audition at your place and he'll gladly help you discover what's there.....

Nap.  :eyebrows:

Laundrew

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 7176
  • "Sometimes it rains inside my head..."
Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #15 on: 12 Jul 2010, 04:37 pm »
Invite Mag for an audition at your place and he'll gladly help you discover what's there.....

Nap.  :eyebrows:

 :nono:  :wink:

Be well...

pras19821

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 7
Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #16 on: 12 Jul 2010, 08:17 pm »
Same issue here. Using low gain on 28BSST with BP-26 doesn't let you raise past 9 o'clock. Problem exasperated with balanced inputs on BP-26. Never tried the high gain...

KnowTalent

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 296
  • ...stuck in the middle with you
Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #17 on: 15 Jul 2010, 07:07 pm »
what?  ...crickets to my original question

James Tanner

  • Facilitator
  • Posts: 20861
  • The Demo is Everything!
    • http://www.bryston.com
Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #18 on: 15 Jul 2010, 07:30 pm »
what?  ...crickets to my original question

Hi - I have asked Chris Russell to answer this one and he is on holidays - sorry for the delay.

james

KnowTalent

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 296
  • ...stuck in the middle with you
Re: Technical ? for James on amp input sensitivity
« Reply #19 on: 16 Jul 2010, 06:33 pm »
Hi - I have asked Chris Russell to answer this one and he is on holidays - sorry for the delay.

james

Thanks James!

I don't claim to be an expert on this stuff as the source output - amp input impedance probably plays a role as well...I am just trying to understand why so many amp manufacturers build amps with such low V sensitivities when much of the "high end" sources have relatively "hot" outputs.

Regards