[Minn Mark]

Hope there are some who can comiserate (sic) with me.....

So, I got the vintage bug    and bought a Marantz 2250B on eBay. Unit arrived ($330 total) and has been working good, although ocassionally makes some weird noises on start-up (thumps, etc).

Next, I got a Marantz 5220 cassette deck (again, eBay--real 'deal' I thought at $60 plus $30 shipping). Unit arrived and played for about 30 minutes before seizing up. I sent the unit to VIntage Electronics (Bob was moving his business to KY at this time, so on his advice I sent the unit to his son Jody in CO for repair). I waited about a month, paid $135 up front, then another $40 for return shipping.  Vint Electronics replaced the belts, gave it a once over, and a 'good cleaning'. On return, the unit was sort of 'bent', so it now sits on three of four feet (is wobbly). There was some kind of 'lube' leaking out of it on the faceplate...it plays and records OK, but the REW is still sticky, and doesnt always work with my old cassettes. The Pause control works only intermittently, when it feels like it.

While waiting for the cass deck repair,   I went again to eBay and bought a Marantz 2325 (from same seller as the aforementioned 2250b). I Won it ($380 plus $50 shipping) and had it shipped. The unit had been worked on by the seller who cleaned it and went wild with the DeOxit, replaced some caps, new light bulbs, new diffuser paper, etc etc---you probably know the story). Worked for a little while on arrival (I'm talking five minutes) , then...screech, BANG ! Smoke eminating from rear of unit.   The main fuse seemed to have blown--I replaced ithe fuse, gingerly powered up and checked the functions with headphones, then with a spare loudspeaker, one channel at a time---OK so far, so I installed it in my system  and tried again. Within 5 minutes, same thing---loud screeching followed by....silence.  No blown fuse this time.

What to do?    .....Hmmm..... went looking around the internet. Saw lots of sites offering Marantz repair/restoration.  I was not looking forward to shipping this beast, so decided to look more locally. (I live in Rochester, MN where we have a couple Home Theater stores and a Best Buy and that's about it). I found Hi Fi Sound in Minneapolis. Drove the 2325 up there last weekend.  After a few days I got a call from one of their sevice guys (an acknowleged Marantz Guru) who says he can't estimate how much it will cost to fix....found a few things wrong....the unit had some prior repair work...can I call him back next week to discuss...could be hundreds of $$ to fix, if even possible. Sounds like he may only work part-time, so this could take awhile to sort out.

I  really like the sight and sound of the old Marantz stuff---could never afford it back in the day, and while I am by no means rich today, I could at least get these items via the web at ? reasonable? prices....I wanted to assemble a vintage system: receiver, TT, cass and speakers, as a secondary system apart from my main system in the Man Cave.

Is my experience similar to others? Has this happened to you? Is this waht the vintage game is all about---constant break-downs and repairs?  Maybe I was naive, but this isnt what I wanted to experience.  For all the dough I've spent so far I could have made a house payment, got some more vinyl (LPs) or bought a Bose waveradio and been done with it.


Appreciate anyone sharing their story or sending some words of encouragement.

Mark

oh, and PS---was also querying the AC Vintage board for source for Marantz wooden cases, which I also came to find out are outrageously expensive given what they are.....

[Wayner]

Mark,

You are going down the vintage trail to hell. Properly working vintage stuff is rare, I repeat, rare. The good stuff is 30+ years old and all kinds of failures are on the horizon. I can tell you have fallen in love with the look of those old vintage pieces, and so have I, but the road to happiness lies elsewhere.

I've been lucky. I had a nice 1530 that I sold to Rockadanny, had a 2230B that went to a guy in the next town, still have a 2220B in the garage, and a monster 2385 sitting on the shelf in the other room. I also picked up a Marantz 6110 TT from a friend of mine. I used to own the 3300 preamp and the 240 power amp. I gave this to my brother who sold it to another guy for about a dollar. They had walnut cabinets and looked awesome.

But awesome looks, don't make sound. That is when I found Audio by Van Alstine. I suggest you let these bad pieces go. Sell them on eBay for not working. There are always folks looking for parts. If you keep spending money on these, your appreciation for them will go to diminishing returns.

Wayner

[Brett Buck]

Mark,

You are going down the vintage trail to hell. Properly working vintage stuff is rare, I repeat, rare. The good stuff is 30+ years old and all kinds of failures are on the horizon. I can tell you have fallen in love with the look of those old vintage pieces, and so have I, but the road to happiness lies elsewhere.

<snips>


But awesome looks, don't make sound. That is when I found Audio by Van Alstine. I suggest you let these bad pieces go. Sell them on eBay for not working. There are always folks looking for parts. If you keep spending money on these, your appreciation for them will go to diminishing returns.

   I agree almost completely. I have rebuilt a bunch of vintage stuff over the years, and the older, more nostalgic stuff is degenerating from age/heat/corrosion/ham-handed repairs. The last few ST-70s I reworked were utter and complete basket cases and were essentially remanufactured with almost no original parts. Bill has provided a few examples of how to do it, but as much as he shows, it doesn't come close to conveying how much work it is*. I think it's a HUGE mistake to just repair it in almost all cases. You'll fix one problem, but I promise there will be another one shortly and it *never ends*.  And it's just getting older all the time.

   If you are going to do it, do it ALL THE WAY. And good luck finding everything you need - unless it's a very common unit, you are going to also end up redesigning it to some extent as well. That's where the "almost" part comes in - if you really know what you are doing, OR, are willing to learn the hard way over years or decades, it can be very satisfying. But be fully prepared and aware of what you are getting yourself in for.

     Brett

*Bill Thomas' rework of the Scott preamp was a masterwork of the highest order. I have repaired and reworked point-to-point wired TVs successfully, but I have never seen anything to compare with the Scott job. He makes it look VASTLY easier than it looks and he must have the patience of a saint.

[Minn Mark]

Wayner and Brett,
Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

Yes I do love the look/feel of the old Marantz gear.....

My main system is AVA (Insight pre, 440H, DAC) plus SOTA, Pro-ject TTs and TEAC Z-6000 cassette (a monster from the '80's; replaced belts and it still works great) and Magnapan 3.6R.

I will consider your advice, and see if I can get the 2325 working for reasonable money. I appreciate I could have spent this dough on AVA upgrades, or a new Longhorn   

It's great hobby, until something like this happens.  Still, I do have a 'crush' on the VPI classic TT....

Thanks again, and
Happy listening

Mark

[AVnerdguy]

I used to service quite a bit of Marantz (and everything else) gear. If you get to the cities send me a PM and we can make arrangements if you like. I can look at the cassette deck as well.

Sounds like a typical blown output stage which really isn't that difficult to repair as long as those "mods" the previous owner put in haven't changed any of the original signal path.

I still repair these as a hobby to keep the skills up (I used to teach AV/Broadcast electronic repair at a local tech school).

[Minn Mark]

AVnerdguy,
Thanks for your kind offer.  I will see what the service guy at HiFi Sound says next week, and may PM you you if I need to.  I appreciate your offer to help.

Thanks,

Mark

[AVnerdguy]

You're welcome. Let me know. Those were my favorites and relatively easy to repair.

[Norman Tracy]

Question for AVnerdguy (and whoever else with an opinion, after all this is the Internet!  ),

What about the caps?

Specifically the electrolytic caps in the power supply and (shudder) any in/near the audio signal path? Typically quoted life spans on these is 25 years or less if they are run hot, too near their voltage ratings, &/or with excessive ripple currents. In my opinion a complete ideal restoration would swap out the electrolytic caps but the problem is the hours spent extracting the old ones, specifying modern uF/voltage/size equivalents, buying and then reinstalling them. Then the $300 e-bay receiver has another $300-$500 of parts and labor in it. Have you any experience in how these classic units perform after a cap refresh? Given the large advances in electrolytic cap's performance in recent years I would expect them to sound better than new. The question becomes do the electromechanical parts like pots, relays, and switches hold up their side?

Even if one ends up with $800 in it when one factors in the mondo-kool factors of the golden age hi-fi from the likes of Marantz, Luxman, Yamaha, et.al.. I would call it a good deal.

  Somebody stop me, please! I FREAKING SELL NEW AMPLIFIERS. WHAT AM I DOING RECOMMENDING THE GREAT CLASSICS?  Same old problem, audiophile first & manufacturer second!

[JohnR]

It's interesting reading this thread, as to me 30 years old doesn't equal vintage - not saying it isn't, just a state of mind... There is lots more to explore in the vintage area other than Dynaco and Scott - Eico for example made some very nice point-to-point power amplifiers. As did Fisher and several others.

[Minn Mark]

For those who may be unfamiliar with the manner(s) in which these old units can be represented on eBay, what follows is a portion of the posting for the aforementioned Marantz 2325 that I won, and is currently in for repair. The posting mentions replacement of some of the caps. The service tech who is looking at this 2325 told me by phone that the output devices for the left channel have all been replaced (previously). There is a tag with a number and date on the back of the receiver, so I suspeected it had been repaired previously.  The 2250b I won had a similiar posting (from same seller), and I think it sounds really nice with circa 1980's Advent Baby II's in which I replaced the woofers after the surrounds deteriorated (used 6 1/2 in Parts Express Dayton woofers).   The 2325 posting info included the following (italics):


Faceplate and dial glass cleaned inside and out!! 

Panel lamps replaced with OEM 200 ma fuse lamps..  Meter lamps replaced.

Pointer lamp replaced.  All function indicators tested and replaced as necessary.  Stereo lamp works!

Diffuser paper behind the tuning scale replaced to restore that classsic Marantz blue glow!!

Power Supply electrolytic capacitors replaced to insure reliability.

Speaker relay replaced

Tantalum capacitors and electrolytic capacitors on the tone board replaced for better performance.

Power supply B+ voltage set to factory specifications.

Audio Amplifier DC Offset and Forward Bias set to factory specifications.

Phono amplifier upgraded as per Marantz Service Bulletin

Original knobs, original feet!!! 

All controls and switches cleaned with De-Ox-It, operate quietly and correctly.

All inputs work-------Phono, Tape 1 In/Out, Tape 2 In/Out, Aux.

FM Reception excellent, AM reception good.

Cabinet is in very good shape,  better than average for units of this age.

As with any electronic unit of this age, this item is sold AS-IS, but guaranteed not DOA. Not D.O.A. means that the unit is guaranteed to power on, but NO GUARANTEE is made as to the performance of the unit, due to the possibility of damage during shipment. This unit was operating properly and was packaged carefully, and should operate properly upon receipt.

Interesting ,the smoke I saw seemed to come from near the speaker connections (see previous; speaker relay replaced??), and if I remember correctly I was using the 5220 cassette deck when this occurred.  Mpls service tech said the Source/Monitor switch was in need of cleaning.

Thanks for all the responses. I am learning a lot from your thoughtful inputs.  Will let this thread know what I find out next week when I talk directly to the service tech. Wish me luck...

Mark

[Construct]

Interesting ,the smoke I saw seemed to come from near the speaker connections (see previous; speaker relay replaced??), and if I remember correctly I was using the 5220 cassette deck when this occurred.  Mpls service tech said the Source/Monitor switch was in need of cleaning.

Mark

I could never, ever do something that unethical.  If I sell something on ebay, it's going to be packed right, and it will work until for whatever reason (age or wear and tear)  it dies.  I refused to sell one of my older modded units top someone because I said that it would cost more than the thing is worth to guarantee it it will not fail.  I am very leery of non-pro restorations. 

[AVnerdguy]

Question for AVnerdguy (and whoever else with an opinion, after all this is the Internet!  ),

What about the caps?

Specifically the electrolytic caps in the power supply and (shudder) any in/near the audio signal path? Typically quoted life spans on these is 25 years or less if they are run hot, too near their voltage ratings, &/or with excessive ripple currents. In my opinion a complete ideal restoration would swap out the electrolytic caps but the problem is the hours spent extracting the old ones, specifying modern uF/voltage/size equivalents, buying and then reinstalling them. Then the $300 e-bay receiver has another $300-$500 of parts and labor in it. Have you any experience in how these classic units perform after a cap refresh? Given the large advances in electrolytic cap's performance in recent years I would expect them to sound better than new. The question becomes do the electromechanical parts like pots, relays, and switches hold up their side?

Even if one ends up with $800 in it when one factors in the mondo-kool factors of the golden age hi-fi from the likes of Marantz, Luxman, Yamaha, et.al.. I would call it a good deal.

  Somebody stop me, please! I FREAKING SELL NEW AMPLIFIERS. WHAT AM I DOING RECOMMENDING THE GREAT CLASSICS?  Same old problem, audiophile first & manufacturer second!

Depends on how hard they are driven etc. It's actually easier on an electolytic to run all the time so they don't dry up (the chemical electrolyte internal). I recently replaced the PS caps in my Hafler XL280 because they are over 20 yrs old and I figured they MUST be about shot but after testing them they were very close to spec. Other amps I've had to replace caps after a few years - maybe they were on the short side of their voltage specs - who knows.

Replacing caps is typically something I don't do unless there is a defect or unit needs repair. On a classic old SS amp or rcvr I'll typically pull a few, test them, and if they're OK I leave them as is. Tube amps I check ALL of them.

As far as sonic differences I don't detect that much audible improvement with new super duper caps because you're also listening to older transistor technology as well. Some sound great some not. PS caps CAN make a big difference but only if they were way down in value to begin with.

I'm more interested in keeping them running because I like old audio equipment and it's fun to repair - and I like how they look with the linear tuner dials glowing in the dark. I have a warehouse of older receivers and tape decks that were being tossed. I fix em up and donate them to schools, churches etc. I use a few now and then - garage, basement etc.

If you want the best audio performance buy something newer and benefit from all of the improvements made in ALL of the components over the past 30 years.

[Bill Thomas]

Hi Mark!

     First off, as Bill Clinton once famously stated, "I feel your pain."  As everyone here knows, I have a "thing" for old Dynaco tube-type gear.  Back in the late 90's, I wanted to obtain the "classic" setup I was *never* able to afford "back in the day" namely, a Stereo 70, a PAS-3, an FM-3 tuner and a pair of AR-3a speakers.  (Never mind the fact that this is a woefully underpowered arrangement for a pair of AR-3a's!)  I began buying Dynaco units from eBay.  (This was back when I actually had a little excess disposable income.)  The goal was to wind up with cosmetically excellent units.  After purchasing over 25 Stereo 70 amplifiers, over 15 PAS preamps and more than 30 FM-3 tuners, a few "facts" became painfully obvious:

     1.  I know this is hard to believe, but eBay sellers lie about their wares!

     2.  Finding ANY Dynaco gear in cosmetically "perfect" condition was a
          lost cause.  Conditions typically ranged from "Very Good" (VERY rare)
          to "Total 'Rust Bucket'" (VERY common!)

     3.  People have a LOT more faith in their chosen "shipping agent" than
         they do in their Deities!  The general "average" was that almost HALF
         of the units I purchased were SERIOUSLY damaged in shipping due to
         improper packing.

     4.  It is unreasonable to assume that (no matter what the eBay seller
          tells you - see item #1) you can unpack a 30 year-old unit,
          connect it up, plug it in and expect it to provide ANY sort of
          dependable operation for more than about 15 minutes of use.

     5.  It IS possible to find a select few eBay sellers you can depend upon,
          but it takes a LOT of buying over a LONG period of time to ferret out
          those  3 or 4 "honest" and "reputable" sellers you can actually TRUST!

     6.  There are exceptions to each of these rules, but they are few and
          far between!

     7.  It is a TOTALLY different "animal" to completely and *PROPERLY*
          reconstruct ANY unit than it is to assemble an original unit from a kit.
          While it is absolutely possible to assemble a "kit" Stereo 70 in one
          evening, you can expect it to take several WEEKS of evenings (or
          more) to completely dis-assemble an existing Stereo 70, refurbish the
          metalwork, acquire the necessary parts, clean EVERYTHING that will
          be reused and PROPERLY assemble the amplifier in order to allow
          another LIFETIME of reliable use.  A PAS preamplifier will take at
          LEAST three times longer!  An FM-3 tuner will take FIVE times as long.

     8.  No matter HOW Much you *think* it should cost, expect to pay at
          LEAST *four times* more than your original cost of the unit IF you
          are doing the restoration yourself, or FORTY times if you are having
          a "reliable professional" do the work.  (Yes, I'm exaggerating, but only
          *slightly.*)

     9.  Above all:  YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO SELL YOUR UNIT FOR ANY-
         WHERE *NEAR* THE AMOUNT YOU HAVE INVESTED IN IT!  EVER!!!

    10.  If you don't believe me, you are welcome to try it for yourself.

     Please realize that I am stating all this with a "tongue-in-cheek" attitude, but you will be Dollars ahead if you take these ten points as Gospel!  Does this mean you should forget about buying "Vintage" audio equipment?  Of course not!  But you must realize that it is even MORE specialized than purchasing a "Vintage" Mustang or (old) VW Beetle!  With only a FEW exceptions, there are NO reproduction parts available for MOST brands (Dynakitparts.com is a notable exception.)

     "Vintage Audio" can begin as a "whim."  But it will quickly take over your time and your wallet IF YOU LET IT!  Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst EVERY time!

     Due to my recent illness, my "projects" were unavoidably put "on hold" for several months.  (They were almost put "on hold" forever!)  These things can happen to YOU too.  Always plan for the "worst case scenario."  You'll keep more of your natural hair if you do.  Don't *rush* ANYTHING!  Always take the time to "do it right" the FIRST time.  It is an order of magnitude easier to prevent mistakes than it is to correct them.

     Vintage units CAN provide a "Wow Factor" that must be heard to be believed, but it takes time and money to RELIABLY enjoy that "Wow Factor" for any appreciable length of time.

     Again, "I Feel Your Pain!"

Sincerely,
Ol' Recovering Bill Thomas

[pumpkinman]

If the Marantz only worked for 5 min. did you at least try to contact the sellar to see
if anything could be resolved..............Bill

[Wayner]

Both sets of my Dynaco A25XLs had issues and if you didn't open up the cabinets and look at the drivers, odds are you would soon burn up your amp, because the speaker terminals have fallen apart and need to be repaired, before playing.

There are some vintage speakers with known problems. AR (woofer foam rot, level controls), Marantz (Imperial series, others, woofer foam rot), JBLs have foam rot with the grills, Advents are usually safe as are some KLH. I've also seen some Jennings Research in not to good of shape.

Turntables are a serious risk, as the problems can be many, from bad motors, to bad anti-skates, besides the usual replaceable stuff like belts. I usually have had good results with direct drives (except my Sony PS-X7).

I commend Bill Thomas for his tenacity, but he is in a league of his own.

I had a very nice Dynaco PAT-4, FM-5 and Stereo 120. I have sold the PAT-4 ad FM-5 and have converted the 120 to an Insight+ AVA170.

I'll never get rid of my Empire, but all other vintage stuff is always on the trading block.

Wayner

[Brett Buck]

Turntables are a serious risk, as the problems can be many, from bad motors, to bad anti-skates, besides the usual replaceable stuff like belts. I usually have had good results with direct drives (except my Sony PS-X7).

  Turntables are *the worst* as far as degrading beyond repair. Most of the time they get damaged in transit, even if they were OK to begin with. One hard hit = platter bearings bad, and in a lot of cases they are completely unservicable. The world will always need 47 MFD capacitors, but  try finding proprietary-design parts for a 40-year-old turntable.

  I might try one again, for myself, with full knowledge that I might fail, but I absolutely *refuse* to work on them for other people any more.

I commend Bill Thomas for his tenacity, but he is in a league of his own.

    Absolutely the best, even my ego has to admit to that!   And as mentioned earlier, he makes it look so much easier than it really is that it's bordering on dangerous to the innocent -  who might think they can do it, too! They can, as long as they are willing to live with innumerable mistakes and blow a lot of stuff up as they come up to speed.

    Brett

[Minn Mark]

So here's the report from the tech at HiFi Sound(italics):

Regarding the Marantz 2325; s/n#11017J4. While testing piece on the bench, I came across numerous problems, issues and am unsure if the problems can be repaired. All issues are not related to shipping damage and heres what I found for starters- as with all repairs hidden problems can show up as the obvious are repaired.
 
Left Channel power amp- intermediate pop and much DC offset to speaker leads causing relay to go into protection. Though an intermediate problem, rather consistant within the first 5 minutes.
 
Speaker protection relay is burnt because of above noted issue.
 
On further inspection of left channel- has been worked on before. New replacement output transistors are substitutes. Work and parts seem fine yet DC offset issue remains and has caused output transistor failure.
 
Source tape switch- intermittent noise in right channel in source position- needs cleaning. Minor- normal repair
FM tuning grounds are scratchy and corroded- needs cleaning. Minor-normal issue
 
Noisy sound in both channels with volume turned up- got better with volume down. Could not play long enough to address concern with unit shutting down. One of those separate issues that will need to be addressed when others are done. Could be major as it affected both channels and is before the volume control...not amps(latter issues) but in the pre-amp/tone control.
 
Rough guestimate: Amps/relay $300+parts
                            Noisy Pre-amp $100-$200
                            Other minor/cleaning $100
Tough to know ...

I contacted the seller, and initialted a PayPal dispute for resolution. The seller has agreed to take the intem back and upon return and inspection will refund my purchase. I'll be able to recoup some of the money, but am disappointed as I'd hoped this receiver would be the 'gem' of a cool vintage system. As it stands, I have assembled the following:

Marantz 2250b receiver
Marantz 5220 cassette deck
Technics SL-D3 DD TT with Shure V15 type III (also spare headshell with AVA Longhorn circa 1995)
Audio Dynamics CD player
Advent Baby II speakers on 24'' stands
Run of the mill interconnects and cables.


Overalll it sounds good, especially with CDs, my older vinyl, and some of my cassettes that are still in Ok shape. The cass deck records well--the copy tape I made sounds great, esp in my car.

Don't think I'll venture much more into the vintage gear. This latest episode (the 2325) has proven just too much hassle for me, given the lack of local service support, my limited budget, not to mention no electronics skills, and time lost to return packing ,shipping etc.

Thanks to all for your support and helpful responses.


Cheers,

Mark

[Brett Buck]

Don't think I'll venture much more into the vintage gear. This latest episode (the 2325) has proven just too much hassle for me, given the lack of local service support, my limited budget, not to mention no electronics skills, and time lost to return packing ,shipping etc.

Thanks to all for your support and helpful responses.

     Sorry to hear it didn't work out, but this is not a particularly unusual tale.

     Should you want to develop your skills working on electronics, I would suggest sticking to Dyna stuff for a while. It's generally pretty inexpensive, and it was designed for kit assembly in the first place so access is easy, the parts are generally common (although the PAS2/3 "blend switch" is a little tough to find), and it tends to be forgiving. Ther are tons of people who know how to work on them. And best of all, stock or modified, they sound pretty good and are pretty reliable when you get them right.

     Brett

[charmerci]

I don't want to give anyone any false hope but  I have a friend who has been using his Marantz 2225B practically everyday for the last 10 years and I'm pretty sure he's been using it much longer than that...

No, it's not for sale.

[Wayner]

My Marantz 2220B is still running strong and it's probably 35 years old. It's the source for music out in the garage, so it gets to see warm and cold, humidity and what ever else mother nature throws at it. I do take it in during the winter.

I don't think this thread is intended to absolutely steer people away from vintage, but to make them aware that it may not be plug and play as many have become used to. When my Marantz dies, it will go to the recycler.

Wayner