What does the measurements on a common $152 pair of speaker look like?

sts9fan · « **Reply #100 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 12:55 pm »

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No worries.

I have always had an open policy to measure and test anything for anybody free of charge. Typically I'd rather that they bring it in because I spend more time packaging and un-packaging than I do setting it up and running all the measurements. If it is big then you're bringing it in. If it is small enough then I don't mind it so much.

I have various companies bring stuff in every month or so. One company that has been in every show there was in the past year, and advertises pretty heavy in most magazines, was just here a few months ago. I usually can learn something from it too, even if it is just something about the people. Even if they don't purchase services from me, they might want to in the future.

If I measure and test something for a hobbyist then usually it is because they are having issues. I give them a list of problems, solutions, or recommendations. The value of that often gains their business.

So while it is a free service, what comes around goes around. So even if I am giving something away for free in a since I am still selling something of myself.

I am still okay in this circle with that I hope.

Sounds awsome. I look forward to your measurments if someone sends you a pair.

scorpion · « **Reply #101 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 02:07 pm »

Dan,

Now that you have dissected the 2031P speaker. In the general interest would be for you to investigate the different speakers measurement data and publish them. If not familiar with impedance measurement I would recommend: http://sound.westhost.com/tsp.htm for measurement of TS-parameters. I recon that you can do frequency measurements with elements in box but also for each of them. That would be informative. Going as far as you have done I would say that not going the full way is not fair. Component values could be reveald and coils measured. For tweaks this is done all the time.

In general I am sympathetic to your and Earl Geddes approach seeking for impules response non resonans and constant directivity over a wide angle and for the full frequency range. That tells very much of a loudspeaker. As is also confirmed by the Toole and Olive research.

On the other side I can also recon some of Danny's objections. Like for a crossover at LP 2 kHz 4 ohm I would also go for a foil coil first and a decent MKP cap, you could do with a bipolar cap but then you should be prepared to exchange that every 5 years or so. The HP crossover seems to be approached by measurement and other information not reveald to get the whole thing working if 6 dB to 12 dB.

For most of the measurement the B2031P waveguide should be honored !

/Erling

Danny Richie · « **Reply #102 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 03:32 pm »

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Fancy parts are fancy parts, but great engineering is priceless.

Sounds like we need to do a little work here in the Lab to discover what makes a difference and what doesn't? It would involve some listening test though. I don't know if you guys are up for it or if making measurements with your ears are allowed here in the Lab. If not we can move the discussion to my circle.

I know there will be some apprehension about the thought of subjective evaluation or various parts, with all of the psycho acoustics involved and all... But if we can hear and confirm the differences between a cassette player and a CD player (pretty easy) then I think we can hear the differences in "fancy parts" and junk parts.

Anybody want to set up a comparison of two otherwise identical speakers (the ones we've been talking about) and have a small group over for listening.

My only suggestion is that whatever system is used is not bottle necked by a bunch of junk upstream. In other words not using a $99 CD player and a $200 receiver with lamp cord for wiring.

Anybody want to play (or listen) and see what we learn?

jtwrace · « **Reply #103 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 03:34 pm »

That's awesome! I would love to hear this...

DanTheMan · « **Reply #104 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 06:54 pm »

Danny, there's a lot of research that already says you can't with caps and wire--well with well engineered parts. IOW if your tolerances are tight, no need for boutique according to research. I'd argue that it is possible to make something bad enough it could be heard. I thought I had done that in the past with some wire, sent it off to three forum members and one couldn't tell the difference, another one said he could but labeled it with positive attributes, and the last said it wasn't good but stated this long and wildly different set attributes during the burn in which he described in great detail. Of course this demonstration doesn't tell us much about what they actually heard. The brain interjected its insight with too much authority. We tried on other forums to get subjectivists to take a well designed test. It hasn't happened even after they professed it would many time, but they'd never show up to do it. Always an excuse. By all means set up a test, carry it out and post results on the web to demonstrate your beliefs. Please let me know if you do. FWIW, I'd be more than happy to participate, but alas not so happy as to pay for a flight. Check out my blog. There's a list of links there where you can see the results of some of these tests. It's far from complete, but I don't care enough to get exhaustive. I thought it would only hamper people's desire to look. The only things in question that I haven't seen a study on is an iron core inductor and the sand cast wire wound resistor. Testing with a tube amp may actually favor the iron core.

Of course I'd advice not to test any speaker with a tube amp unless it was specifically designed for one. Another thing of interest would be not just a difference after sufficient sampling, but also a preference. Then you also have to question if there is either of these previous things, which is then more accurate? Of course that is easier to measure. If the parts measure the same, then the accuracy should be the same. Setting up the test to eliminate the outside variables isn't trivial and I'd approach it with care.

I should have known that if I tried to do something good for the hobbyist it would turn into a subjective/objective debate.

Even in the Lab. Nowhere is safe, but where is that? (that's my sense of humor again) Too bad we can't post/perform meaningful listening tests in the Lab--well I guess you can do single blind, but they are less perfect and always subject to more scrutiny. Plus, why taunt the moderators? We've done enough of it already. They've got better things to do than babysit the forum members. It's tough when people present arguments that contradict research. I'd ask you, Danny, to just not do it. It just helps no one in reality. If all of your opinions were defensible, then I'd say by all means. Of course I also wouldn't be arguing with you now. For instance, I didn't have a problem with your statement about nonlinear distortion's importance not being a huge factor in loudspeaker design. I said the same thing earlier in this very thread and it's backed by research. Making claims that cannot be backed by any research just isn't what this thread was intended to be about.

Hey Scorp. Excellent commentary! I wish these wires weren't soldered on the woofer and crossover. I'd be more inclined to do further testing. I just don't want to desolder the leads attached to the woofer. Grant it there's not a lot of risk of damage, but enough that I don't want to do it right now. The speaker I'm modding isn't mine and the owner hasn't even gotten to hear them yet. Imagine getting that call, "dude, you know that speaker? Well yah, I broke it."

If I damaged them, I'd just give him my set and then I'd be out of speakers. It's not a huge risk, just more than I want to take. I'd feel terrible. I really don't want to clip the wires either and I don't want to do it to my own set presently. The tweaks this would help provide just don't look like a good value on paper.

Dan

wushuliu · « **Reply #105 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 07:11 pm »

Dan, have you posted this info on Audioholics? It sounds like you've got your line drawn and would feel more comfortable discussing w/ like-minded people, and they certainly fit the bill. (being serious here).

jtwrace · « **Reply #106 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 07:18 pm »

Maybe if you spent more time listening and soldering you would be more inclined to de-solder for more testing and then listen. You might think that there's more to it then lamp cord wire and shitty components. I'm not in the spend more then needed but the caps that Danny is speaking of are def worth the money IMO. Yes, I've done back to back with my speakers that I built.

This thread is now one of the craziest things I've read on this forum...

sts9fan · « **Reply #107 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 07:32 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 22 Jul 2010, 07:18 pm

This thread is now the craziest things I've read on this forum...

You must be new here.

Thanks Dan for posting all this information. What test gear do you use? I want to get some in the near future.

Kris

jtwrace · « **Reply #108 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 07:40 pm »

Quote from: sts9fan on 22 Jul 2010, 07:32 pm

You must be new here.
Kris

Actually not. correction made above.

sts9fan · « **Reply #109 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 07:44 pm »

If you have any speaker measuring experience please share.

wushuliu · « **Reply #110 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 07:46 pm »

ok guys. put away the 'measuring' tape...

jtwrace · « **Reply #111 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 07:49 pm »

Quote from: sts9fan on 22 Jul 2010, 07:44 pm

If you have any speaker measuring experience please share.

I've posted a bunch in the past. For this thread, there is no purpose.

Have fun!

HAL · « **Reply #112 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 08:02 pm »

Ok, here is the deal. As someone who measures and listens this could be fun and learn something along the way.

I have sent Danny a pair of Behringer B2031P speakers to measure. This is a stock pair off the shelf. They are going directly to him from Amazon, no burn-in time. They should be at GR Research next week.

Once he is done, they can be used for listening sessions at his place. Once this is done will figure out something fun to do with them.

Who knows, maybe they will be part of my audio mad scientist demo system next year at LSAF! BWAHAHAHAHAH!

Let the fun begin!

DanTheMan · « **Reply #113 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 10:22 pm »

I'm using Room EQ Wizard which is free software from home theater shack. A calibrated EMU 0404 USB connected to a MacBook with Leopard. The Mic is a Dayton which was calibrated by Cross-Spectrum Labs. Doing your own measurements is ear opening.

Thanks HAL, That's very generous of you. His measurements will be cool to see. Did I just get lucky with the five I've seen and tested? Only time will tell.

Danny, what settings and mic distance do you use to generate your waterfall plots--that way we can see direct comparisons. I imported some measurements into the new REW today and should be able to make some plots.

Dan

HT cOz · « **Reply #114 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 10:34 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 22 Jul 2010, 10:22 pm

Debates aside, does anyone want to learn something or not.

I would like to learn for sure. I've learned a lot just by handing around Audio Circle and reading different peoples posts. Even the ones that cause a stir have great info in them.

Thanks,
Robert

DanTheMan · « **Reply #115 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 11:14 pm »

Oh Danny. What in the heck are you talking about? PM me with some research. I haven't seen anything that agrees with your opinion. I don't blindly follow anything. I have read some research. Do you live in the SF Bay Area? I mentioned I'd gladly take part in some research.

Otherwise do you want to discuss your waterfall settings?

Dan

pjchappy · « **Reply #116 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 11:16 pm »

Let's not get too snippy here, folks.

Remember, this is the lab. . . so, technical discussion is encouraged and desired.

Paul

DanTheMan · « **Reply #117 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 11:20 pm »

Quote from: wushuliu on 21 Jul 2010, 11:42 pm

If he has more negatives than positives to say though you'll get the 'he's biased' , etc. arguments. Actually, he'll probably get that anyway regardless.

Still, that's a great offer. The more info about these speakers the better.

I'll say he biased no matter his stated listening impressions. Just as I would be if I gave mine. So is SL and Soongsc. It's part of the game. The measurements have no brain and thus a far better assessment.

We have more info about these speakers than most on the market now, but more data is always a good thing.

Dan

satfrat · « **Reply #118 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 11:34 pm »

Danny Richie · « **Reply #119 on:** 22 Jul 2010, 11:42 pm »

Dan, I personally did a ton of research in these areas and I have given you the results. You don't have to believe my opinion or those of someone else that make claims otherwise. Whether you read it or are being told the results you are still believing in something. I am asking if you want to find out for yourself or not? Maybe we can set up listening impressions in the Bay area.

I use a 4ms time window for my waterfall settings. I use a 1 watt/1 meter standard as well.