[S Clark]

Dave,
I am out in a rural area, 20+ miles S of Abilene TX.  We are the only house on our transformer, and the nearest neighbor is 1/3 mile away.  Are most of the important sources of line noise within my home?  When listening, the fluorescent lights are off and the computer is off.  All incandescent lights are on dimmers.  I try to turn them all the way on or off. I use a combo of Electra Cables and DIY.  Invariably cables end up in a random criss cross behind the components.  What are the things that the listener can control before buying line conditioners? 

Scott

[werd]

Hi

Fridge, washers and dryers, furnaces, major appliances are big culprits.  A couple of times over the winter i turned off my furnace intentionally for an hour of listening. Went to bed and forgot to turn it back on...hehe.
woke up and the house was pretty cold....lol

[S Clark]

... turned off my furnace intentionally for an hour of listening. Went to bed and forgot to turn it back on...hehe.
woke up and the house was pretty cold....lol

We tend to have the opposite problem in TX.  Especially with tubes in the summer.  But surely in Saskatoon the solution to your problem is ... more tubes!

[dBe]

Dave,
I am out in a rural area, 20+ miles S of Abilene TX.  We are the only house on our transformer, and the nearest neighbor is 1/3 mile away.  Are most of the important sources of line noise within my home?  When listening, the fluorescent lights are off and the computer is off.  All incandescent lights are on dimmers.  I try to turn them all the way on or off. I use a combo of Electra Cables and DIY.  Invariably cables end up in a random criss cross behind the components.  What are the things that the listener can control before buying line conditioners? 

Scott

Scott, werd pretty well nailed it.  I'll add to that: dimmers (SCR dimmers really, really suck!); plasma & LED TV's (sorry); the computer that you mentioned; all of the computers that you didn't mention - like any piece of electrical equipment that has an active electronic timer; pool pumps, hot tubs...... pretty much anything that uses electricity.

For very high quality audio a dedicated circuit is an absolute necessity.  That doesn't mean that it has to be newely installed, although that is the best thing to do.  It just needs to be a circuit that is used only by the audio system.  Check out the circuit that your audio system is on and don't use the rest of the outlets.  Unfortunately, most rooms have the wall plugs and the lights on the same circuit.  Not terrible, but use incandescent lighting only.

The single biggest noise (EMI) contributor in most peoples home that runs on 110-120V is the refrigerator.  If at all possible, make sure that the system is on the other wiring phase from the 'fridge.  That means having someone qualified to do so switch the circuit to the other phase, if it is on the system phase.

One of the things that I do every year (at least) is to check the tightness of every accessible electrical connection in the home.  I start at the service panel and then go to every outlet and switch in the house and make sure that all of the connections are clean and tight.  Of course I first make sure that all of the breakers are in the OFF position.  It is amazing how much the screws will loosen over the period of a year.  Copper cold-flow, heat/cold cycles, use - all of these things will loosen these screws.  That is a bad thing, because micro-arcing in a loose/dirty connection is an RFI generator that will contaminate every circuit in the home.

Make sure that every plug in the system is clean and shiney.  If it isn't, polish it to a nice luster.  A treatment of Caig De-Oxit is a good thing, too.  You would be amazed as to the sonic improvements that a clean connector in a clean receptacle will bring.

Dave

[MaxCast]

Kids.  They know to knock but sometimes I don't hear them and they scare the crap out of me.

[werd]

Refrigerators are pretty high but in my house the furnace beats it. My furnace is in the next room from my hifi. Not only do i get the AC noise but i also hear the furnace turn off and on and run.... its pretty bad.

[werd]

We tend to have the opposite problem in TX.  Especially with tubes in the summer.  But surely in Saskatoon the solution to your problem is ... more tubes!

I've considered this. Two birds with one stone ... hehe

[JimJ]

Kids.  They know to knock but sometimes I don't hear them and they scare the crap out of me.

Wives/girlfriends.

With all the advances in DSP, you'd think there'd be a notch filter developed...

[brother love]

... The single biggest noise (EMI) contributor in most peoples home that runs on 110-120V is the refrigerator.  If at all possible, make sure that the system is on the other wiring phase from the 'fridge.  That means having someone qualified to do so switch the circuit to the other phase, if it is on the system phase...

Dave

Dave could you possibly elaborate on this just a bit? 

My house was built in 1960 & has 2 conductor wire throughout. I do have a dedicated line fed for audio purposes w/ exception of my sub which is on another outlet/ circuit.

I have a Rythmik Audio servo sub w/ a Danny Ritchie driver. Even w/ a cheater plug, it has an audible hum.  I currently have an OC703 corner absorber near it which helps, but I can still hear it.

Speaking of which, I can hear the pulsing of the fridge compressor from the sub driver if my ear is placed next to it. Ugh ...

[drphoto]

I have the GR servo subs and I got a hum once that turned out to be a loose connection to the servo coil. May be worth a check on that. (Subs are DIY, so it was my own fault)

[dBe]

Kids.  They know to knock but sometimes I don't hear them and they scare the crap out of me.

Dave

[dBe]

Dave could you possibly elaborate on this just a bit? 

My house was built in 1960 & has 2 conductor wire throughout. I do have a dedicated line fed for audio purposes w/ exception of my sub which is on another outlet/ circuit.

I have a Rythmik Audio servo sub w/ a Danny Ritchie driver. Even w/ a cheater plug, it has an audible hum.  I currently have an OC703 corner absorber near it which helps, but I can still hear it.

Speaking of which, I can hear the pulsing of the fridge compressor from the sub driver if my ear is placed next to it. Ugh ...

My first question to you would be: Is the subwoofer circuit and the dedicated audio circuit on the same phase at the panel?  If not, there is your noise generator.

Tell us more about the electrical connections and types of gear in your system.

Ground loops are the worst!  Hate 'em.  They can come from any connection in the system.  I have seen gear that had the hot/neutral reversed internally.  Plug an interconnect into it from another piece of gear that is wired correctly and you have hum issues.

Refrigerators and refrigerated air are big offenders.  Stay tuned for news on this front.

Dave

 

[brother love]

My first question to you would be: Is the subwoofer circuit and the dedicated audio circuit on the same phase at the panel?  If not, there is your noise generator.

Tell us more about the electrical connections and types of gear in your system.

Ground loops are the worst!  Hate 'em.  They can come from any connection in the system.  I have seen gear that had the hot/neutral reversed internally.  Plug an interconnect into it from another piece of gear that is wired correctly and you have hum issues.

Refrigerators and refrigerated air are big offenders.  Stay tuned for news on this front.

Dave

I'll have to do some careful detective work in the panel & see.  I've also got one of those plug-in circuit testers that I need to use at all outlets.  Once I have some further details, I'll post...

[dBe]

I'll have to do some careful detective work in the panel & see.  I've also got one of those plug-in circuit testers that I need to use at all outlets.  Once I have some further details, I'll post...

Cool.  Let us all know what is going on and we'll get 'er figured out.

Dave

[brother love]

My first question to you would be: Is the subwoofer circuit and the dedicated audio circuit on the same phase at the panel?  If not, there is your noise generator.

Tell us more about the electrical connections and types of gear in your system.

Ground loops are the worst!  Hate 'em.  They can come from any connection in the system.  I have seen gear that had the hot/neutral reversed internally.  Plug an interconnect into it from another piece of gear that is wired correctly and you have hum issues.

Refrigerators and refrigerated air are big offenders.  Stay tuned for news on this front.

Dave

I’m dealing w/ a summer outage project this wk. & working long hrs., but contractor broke off early yesterday to get some stuff fab’d in the shop. So that freed up some time for me to do some detective work & help scratch that itch that Dave started in this thread    …

Let me preface my comments by saying I will definitely get an electrician to do any extensive mods/ trouble-shooting, but I've added/ changed circuit breakers before in this house I’ve owned for last 3 yrs..

I checked outlets w/ 3 prong plug-in tester (all outlets are 3 prong) & most indicate “open ground” (orange center light bright, orange right light very dim).  I assume this is normal for my house that was built in 1960 & has 2 conductor wire.  There are a few outlets that are “correct” (orange center light bright, orange right light bright; bath outlets for ex.). 

Circuit breaker panel inspection indicates fridge is on Line 1 phase, as is the outlet serving my subwoofer. Also on this phase is washer/ dryer.

My dedicated outlet for A/V equipment is on Line 2 phase, BUT the HVAC/ Furnace is on this phase as well (125a: 50a condenser, 50a sub-panel & 25a furnace), as is water heater.

I added an extension cord to the sub & hooked-up to A/V outlet to keep both on same phase opposite the fridge.  Hum still there. I had a déjà vu moment, & remembered I had  done this last year (incl. lugging the sub to another room on a different circuit)  , but then I’ve slept since then. I also had tried different cables between avr & sub, disconnected OTA antenna feed to avr, etc..

I had checked connections on sub amp/ driver before when I added No-Rez earlier this yr., & they had seemed snug enough.

So would it be good to switch the fridge circuit breaker to Line 2 phase w/ HVAC, & switch dedicated A/V outlet (incl. routing a cable in attic to sub outlet) to Line 1 phase? Both are single 20a breakers.  I realize this doesn’t eliminate my specific ground loop problem, but assume it might help matters in general.

Oh, A/V system details:  42" Pio plasma , Denon AVR, 6 speaker surround, Oppo blu-ray. 2.1 ch: GR Research N2x & servo sub, Virtue One. 2 int. amp & Dodd batteries w/ trickle charger (note: 2 ch added in past month. Sub hum problems known before this).

Edit:  Seems like a 3rd line came in for the 125a HVAC.    I need look at again this weekend, but I sure hope so after tallying up all the breaker amperage.  Also, the GE panel has 24 slots on left & 24 on right.

[jtwrace]

Refrigerators and refrigerated air are big offenders.  Stay tuned for news on this front.

Dave

I'm tuned but impatient. 

[dBe]

I’m dealing w/ a summer outage project this wk. & working long hrs., but contractor broke off early yesterday to get some stuff fab’d in the shop. So that freed up some time for me to do some detective work & help scratch that itch that Dave started in this thread    …

Let me preface my comments by saying I will definitely get an electrician to do any extensive mods/ trouble-shooting, but I've added/ changed circuit breakers before in this house I’ve owned for last 3 yrs..

I checked outlets w/ 3 prong plug-in tester (all outlets are 3 prong) & most indicate “open ground” (orange center light bright, orange right light very dim).  I assume this is normal for my house that was built in 1960 & has 2 conductor wire.  There are a few outlets that are “correct” (orange center light bright, orange right light bright; bath outlets for ex.). 

Circuit breaker panel inspection indicates fridge is on Line 1 phase, as is the outlet serving my subwoofer. Also on this phase is washer/ dryer.

My dedicated outlet for A/V equipment is on Line 2 phase, BUT the HVAC/ Furnace is on this phase as well (125a: 50a condenser, 50a sub-panel & 25a furnace), as is water heater.

I added an extension cord to the sub & hooked-up to A/V outlet to keep both on same phase opposite the fridge.  Hum still there. I had a déjà vu moment, & remembered I had  done this last year (incl. lugging the sub to another room on a different circuit)  , but then I’ve slept since then. I also had tried different cables between avr & sub, disconnected OTA antenna feed to avr, etc..

I had checked connections on sub amp/ driver before when I added No-Rez earlier this yr., & they had seemed snug enough.

So would it be good to switch the fridge circuit breaker to Line 2 phase w/ HVAC, & switch dedicated A/V outlet (incl. routing a cable in attic to sub outlet) to Line 1 phase? Both are single 20a breakers.  I realize this doesn’t eliminate my specific ground loop problem, but assume it might help matters in general.

Oh, A/V system details:  42" Pio plasma , Denon AVR, 6 speaker surround, Oppo blu-ray. 2.1 ch: GR Research N2x & servo sub, Virtue One. 2 int. amp & Dodd batteries w/ trickle charger (note: 2 ch added in past month. Sub hum problems known before this).

Edit:  Seems like a 3rd line came in for the 125a HVAC.    I need look at again this weekend, but I sure hope so after tallying up all the breaker amperage.  Also, the GE panel has 24 slots on left & 24 on right.

One more question.  Does the sub hum with input cabling disconnected?  I know that this is simplistic and I'm sure that you've done this, but I have to ask.  When tracing down hums, I always start with the just the sub amp hooked to the wall - no input cabling.  Then I would hook it up to the receiver with all of the receiver inputs unplugged, plug one set of component cables into the receiver at a time with the component turned on and see if you can't isolated the problem that way.  I would imagine that you have already done this.  Another thing to consider is the unseen hum inducers, like in-wall wiring in proximity and in parallel to any signal wiring or to the plate amp in the sub.  I've seen this happen all too frequently.  You may want to pop the top off of the Denon and see if it is properly grounded internally.  In other words, make sure that the chassis ground and the neutral are common.  Same with the plate amp.

Concerning the sub amp being on the same phase as the 'fridge:  First, make sure that all of the above is OK.  Then you have to ask yourself some questions.  What are the trade-offs involved in the opposite phase going to be?  Plug the subamp into Phase 1 and listen to determine if it is superior in sound that way.  Since electricians spend time balancing current demands in the panel there is going to be downside/upside considerations both ways.  Generally speaking audio should ALWAYS be on the same phase.

As a diagnostic tool, destroy a 3-prong adapter by removing the ground pin and file the left hand (wide = neutral) blade until it is the same width as the right hand one.  Check each piece of gear by using this plug to try input AC polarity both wys to that piece of gear.  Odds are you will find one offending piece and then we can figure out how to do this properly.  DON"T USE THAT PLUG UNDER NORMAL USE! 

Dave

[dBe]

I'm tuned but impatient.

I know.  Me, too.

I'm having a helluva time getting some essential components from one of my suppliers.  I was supposed to have delivery on a couple of thousand pieces in February.  I'm still waiting.  I have scrounged other sources until I have about depleted them.

I'm impatient.

Dave

[jtwrace]

I know.  Me, too.

I'm having a helluva time getting some essential components from one of my suppliers.  I was supposed to have delivery on a couple of thousand pieces in February.  I'm still waiting.  I have scrounged other sources until I have about depleted them.

I'm impatient.

Dave

So what's the realistic tuned amout needed?

[dBe]

So what's the realistic tuned amout needed?

To catch up and have enough stock for timely delivery and release new items - at least 500.  I'm supposed to hear something last Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and today    

Problem is they are custom made for me.

Dave