[WGH]

I'd add one more thing to Wayner's excellent rules.  Double box after you pack it according to Wayner.  Home Depot sells styrofoam insulation sheets that can be easily cut or broken to go over, under and around the inner box.  I think this step increases the odds of an undamaged shipment significantly.

I'll add one more thing to Scotthobby's post: the manager at the UPS Store told me that all electronics need to be double boxed with 2" of space between both boxes because their insurance will not cover single boxed electronics.

Wayne

[TONEPUB]

I don't really want to continue this argument, it can go on forever.

A budget belt drive beats a budget DD, end of argument.

For a long time I might have agreed with this post...

But thanks to Wayner, John and a few others, I've really taken a long hard look at the vintage DD tables as an alternative and it's been a mixed bag.  After living with an SL-1200 and now a Denon in a world class system for quite some time, those DD tables aren't so bad.  I still don't like the stock arm on a 1200, but once I fitted mine with an SME 309 and a TimeStep power supply, the 1200's glory really came through.  I feel the table itself is way better than the arm and when fitted this way stands up to anything else I've heard.

I'm pretty intrigued with this Denon as well.

But more than anything, I've seen more of a difference than a better or worse.  The modest belt drive tables have a little more midrange magic and the DD's have better pitch stability (if your ears are more sensitive to that) and definitely more bass slam.  So depending on the overall balance of your system, the DD tables are definitely worthy of consideration.  And I'm saying that as a 30+ year Rega owner.

Rather than all the arguing, do some listening.  You might be pleasantly surprised, or if nothing else, led down another interesting path....

[hotrod]

A very nice post Tonepub.
 I very much agree it's more about differences in presentation than it is about one drive system being better.I've been listening to different DD's and belt drives over the years and very few were poor decks,they each had their individual sound.Now if we could only find a table that combines the best of what both drive systems had to offer.....oh ya there is such an animal,an Idler.
 Thats an argument for another day.
And knowing how I feel about Idlers,I would never say someones DD or BD could never better it(I think they call that ignorance).It's all about what type of sonic presentation one is after,I am just thankfull we have a variety of components to choose from to help find the sound one is in search of.
 To each his own.

[Wayner]

On of the reasons that I own 6 of the same cartridge is that it levels the playing field between TTs. I also happen to like the cartridge and consider it a best buy for the money, at least to my ears. But what is does is let me hear the strengths and weaknesses from deck to deck. I have learned that DD tables offer steady speed, and have low wow and flutter along with low rumble. However, I have found some belt drives to have even lower rumble, probably due to the higher platter mass, that a DD can't offer, with the sacrifice of speed stability. Yes, hotrod and TONEPUB both realize that there are trade-offs between decks.

The arm is another factor. The Techics SL1200 arm (and more so, the instructions for setting up the arm) is a confusing matter. I suspect that the deck has gone thru several revisions, but the owners manual has not kept up. The anti-skating in particular on both my Technics is a about 2.5 while I'm tracking at 1.6 grams. The calibration is off. The Sony's anti-skating behavior is marvelous. I don't know what they did, but they did it right. I also like the stabilizer weight that is on the inboard portion of the arm pivot.

I have noticed that with all of the tonearms that I have, I wish for the vertical needle bearings to be tight, and totally free of any friction, as they should be, to react to any record warp.On the contrary, I want the horizontal bearing to be dirty and slow to react. This seems to help in all regards to anti-skating and tracking. The Sony arms seem to have both of these qualities.

On a side note to all of this, I really wonder about tonearm damping troughs, at least the way they are currently designed. I don't think they should interfere with the tonearm itself, but rather the swiveling of the pivot base. This goes along with my theory that vertical movement should be free as possible, horizontal movement, sluggish (to a point).

Just more rambling.

Wayner 

[TheChairGuy]

On a side note to all of this, I really wonder about tonearm damping troughs, at least the way they are currently designed. I don't think they should interfere with the tonearm itself, but rather the swiveling of the pivot base. This goes along with my theory that vertical movement should be free as possible, horizontal movement, sluggish (to a point).

Not to deviate a topic that has probably gone too far afield in it's original intent already , but I made a home brew damping trough for the first DD table a few years ago (a JVC QL-A2) with aluminum foil, a snip from a paperclip attached to the underside of the arm with a bit o' clay and 50000 cst silicone.

The results were MORE than illuminating with a variety of cartridges.  ALL of them benefited, some to an astonishing degree. The presentation was cleaner all around, notable noise (low frequency type...whether that is characterized as rumble or something else) reduction too...it could be heard as it hit the outer groove before and music was played.

Pivot damping seems less effective overall than trough damping. 

I was originally intrigued as my fave table up until that time was a Townshend Rock II with the famous damping trough...that one out nearer to the headshell and the trough of gooey silicone precariously positioned over the record itself

John

[neobop]

If the pivot that effects horizontal movement is "dirty" and slow to react, isn't that mimicking a damping trough?
A damping trough will effect horizontal movement much more than vertical. The paddle is like an oar in the water, or goo as the case may be. Silicon is cool stuff, but don't get it on your record!!

In reality arm movements are 3 dimensional, but I think this is useful for understanding damping and the implications. The arm/cart will benefit from damping up to the point until critical damping is achieved. Beyond that, it will degrade performance. Over-damping will slow transients and effect the bass impact - generally muddy up the sound. Critical damping can really be beneficial, as John says.

Often higher compliance carts are partnered with arms that are a little too heavy. In this case the arm mass provides the damping and additional damping will probably sound worse. A deliberately under-damped cart like a Grado will benefit from a low mass arm and damping. Maybe that's why Grado recommends a med/high mass arm, most people don't have additional damping. It seems to me that the longhorn is a form of  damping, using mass.

neo