[mchuckp]

I guess I have some experimenting to do to prove to myself one way or another.  I currently run my Touch into my router via ethernet and then WiFi from my laptop.  Sure I could run an ethernet from my laptop to my router, just a lot easier to not do so as I sit on the couch 12' away.

I guess I haven't bothered with any other configuration because since getting the Touch, I have found my AppleLossless tracks indistinguishable from CDs when fed into my DAC.

[mchuckp]

CAT5 or CAT6  pre-made cables are very inexpensive these days. Take a look at monoprice or PartsExpress. Under $10.00 for 50 ft. While maybe not the best quality, they are better than having a radio transmitter operating inside your music source.

A few years ago I bought a 500' spool of outdoor UV rated CAT5e, a crimper and quite a few connectors. I hard wired from my router in my top floor to the basement. I ran more leads through the basement to my son's room so he could play WOW without drops. I recently ran a couple more to the media room for the SB and a Blu-Ray/Netflix player.

Wi-Fi is convenient but a bit noisy and slow for 24/96 audio files.

Wayne,

Why is it that with all the cable hoopla in the audio world no one (that I know of) is making "audiophile" ethernet cables?  Does it truly not matter?  We all make such a big deal out of all our other connections.

[Wayne1]

I guess I have some experimenting to do to prove to myself one way or another.  I currently run my Touch into my router via ethernet and then WiFi from my laptop.  Sure I could run an ethernet from my laptop to my router, just a lot easier to not do so as I sit on the couch 12' away.

I guess I haven't bothered with any other configuration because since getting the Touch, I have found my AppleLossless tracks indistinguishable from CDs when fed into my DAC.

Wayne,

Why is it that with all the cable hoopla in the audio world no one (that I know of) is making "audiophile" ethernet cables?  Does it truly not matter?  We all make such a big deal out of all our other connections.

You really should run hard wired from the computer to the router. The laptop should be in a different room to remove any hard drive noise and fan noise from the computer. We aren't even going to start about the switching power supplies used by laptops polluting the AC line near your system and the RFI they produce. 

Quite honestly, my flac files sound a LOT better than the CDs they are ripped from. This statement has been repeated by many people.

There are some "high end" ethernet cables. Look into plenum rated Cat6. For the most part, ethernet cables are sending digital data packets while most other cables are sending analog information. This does include the s/pdif cables. Resistance, inductance, capacitance, impedance, etc. all matter a great deal with analog transmitting and receiving systems. There is no "standard" for what the output impedance or even voltage of a preamp. Same with input impedance and sensitivity of a power amp. These are just two simple examples of the variation in design that you are trying to match up. Throw in all the different flavors of interconnects in there, no wonder no one can agree what sounds good.

There IS a standard for ethernet cables, transmitters and receivers.

[mchuckp]

You really should run hard wired from the computer to the router. The laptop should be in a different room to remove any hard drive noise and fan noise from the computer. We aren't even going to start about the switching power supplies used by laptops polluting the AC line near your system and the RFI they produce. 

Honestly, I have ZERO issue with fan noise or hard drive noise.  My MacBook is always dead quiet unless I'm actually spinning a CD/DVD in the drive.  As for switching power supply on it, I always run on battery when streaming for critical listening.  Is there any issue with running the laptop on battery?  I would think this would be ideal unless for some reason battery limits necessary power due to an attempt by the computer to conserve battery life.

I can't say if running ethernet will yield me better results than WiFi between my router and laptop but I will try it this weekend. 

One noise in my room I would like to get rid of is my freakin' cable box.  I never noticed it before until getting room treatments.  Now during quiet passages, I can hear the hard drive.  Annoying.

[mchuckp]

Bolder Analog & Digital Mods w/ Deluxe Power Supply/Nitro DC Cable

Alright, so I’ve had my Bolder modded Squeezebox Touch for a few weeks now and wanted to give my opinions.  I had Wayne do the digital AND analog mods to the unit along with building me his brand new “Deluxe” power supply.  I also opted for his Nitro DC cable with the power supply.  I have a stock Touch that I did some comparisons with.

For anyone interested in my accompanying gear, please look here.  I will at least point at that the DAC I used is a Wyred4Sound DAC-1.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;area=browse;system=1367

Out of the Box:
First thing I did was put my new Deluxe power supply into my stock Touch and sat down for about an hour listening session.  As Wayne described, I did think the presentation was a bit rough with the bass sounding a bit bloated and overall slightly distorted.  After about 45 minutes, things did seem much better.  Wayne said this could last for several weeks but I thought the majority of it went away the next day.  Not completely but mostly. 

The Next day I got the modded Touch out and hooked up the Deluxe PS to it and used the digital output to my DAC.  I didn’t notice much harshness so I assume mostly the “out of the box” woes stems from the power supply.  At least in my set up it did.  After this, I pretty much ran it at least 12-15hrs a day for burn in.

Back Story:
I had owned a stock SB Duet previously.  I personally found the analog outs pretty subpar.  At the time, I was in between DACs after selling my PS Audio DLIII and hoped the Duet could hold me over but I couldn’t do it.  I sold it a few weeks later and stuck to my Oppo BDP83 SE as a source even though I wanted a media server.  I’ve had a Touch since it was released.  I do find the analog outs of the Touch far superior than the Duet.  However, IMO still just not at the level it needs to be for a quality audio system.  At this time, I still didn’t have a dedicated DAC as I was waiting for the Wyred4 Sound DAC-1 to be released.  The Touch mainly sat idle until I got this DAC about a month later.  Upon getting the DAC-1, I was VERY happy with the Touch>DAC1 combo.  My goal had been to meet or exceed the performance of my Oppo BDP83 SE.  The DAC-1 uses the same family of ESS Sabre chips as the Oppo SE except a higher model.  I am THRILLED with this DAC.  It has the same sound characteristics as my Oppo SE but does it better.

Now for some impressions.  Note that this is a synopsis based on two weeks of listening.  Not out of the box.

Analog Output:
Here is my opinion of the stock Touch analog outs vs a Bolder modded Touch analogs.  As I already mentioned, I find the Touch analogs “adequate”.  Quite good for what one would expect out of a $300 device but doesn’t perform at the level of “better” gear.  I found the Bolder modded Touch a pretty significant upgrade via analogs.  It was pretty apparent something had changed in my system when I switched over.  Much bolder, cleaner sound.  Microdynamics came through more effortlessly.  When I threw the Deluxe PS into the mix things got that much better.  The PS seemed to really help the bass get cleaner and helped imaging in the overall sound.

Digital Output:
My experience with the digital outputs was a bit less dramatic than the analogs.  What I mean is that I DO hear the difference between the mods/PS but not to the same extreme as the analogs.  I feel like my stock Touch into my DAC-1 sounds VERY nice.  Adding the digital mods and/or PS REALLY does help refine the sound and takes my sound to the next level.  Here is the way I describe the difference.  I think it does everything better to a small degree and the sum of its parts yields a very nice upgrade that his hard to describe in words but you know it is there.  It’s like I find it hard to focus on any one expect of the sound and say “Gee, the bass is so much more refined” or “the soundstage grew quite a bit”.  I can’t put my finger on exactly why it sounds better but it definitely does.  When I listen to my modded Touch, the sound really PULLS me in and doesn’t want to let go.  When I use the stock Touch, it still sounds great but a bit less involving.  I really hope this makes some sense.  I don’t want to leave the impression that the modded Touch is an insignificant upgrade, because that isn’t true.  I have ZERO hesitation in the money I spent on my mods/power supply.  My system has never sounded better and the Bolder mods/ps is part of the equation.

Mod or power supply?:
For anyone wondering which made the bigger impact on my set up, the mod or the power supply.  I did a comparison of the Stock Touch with the Deluxe PS against the Modded Touch with a stock wallwart using the digital outs.  My opinion is that the modded Touch/Wallwart out performed the Stock Touch/PS.  I didn’t find the difference night and day but preferred the sound.  I think what stood out to me was the microdynamics.  They were much easier to hear.  Also, cymbals and such seemed to come through easier.  Without the mods, they were kind of lost in the mix.  Again, either configuration was better than the stock Touch with wallwart.  After this I put the PS back into the modded Touch and my magic sound was back. 

Final Thoughts:
I’m sure someone is wondering which configuration sounds the best.  Here is my opinion on that.  If I was forced to choose between a Bolder analog mod (even with the PS), I’d still keep my stock Touch into my DAC-1.  The Bolder analog modded Touch is a large improvement over the stock Touch BUT still can’t quite reach the level of throwing my DAC into the chain.  If you wanted to keep a simple set up and avoid using a DAC or wanted a quality sound in a 2nd set up, I think the modded Touch via analogs is a great investment.  But if your goal is to maximize your sound to the highest potential, I recommend a Bolder digital mod/ps and get yourself a quality external DAC. 

I’m sure results will vary with everybody’s gear and the synergy you have in components.  But these are my impressions on my system.  For me, the digital mods with PS is the way to achieve the highest level I can get and glad I went this route.  In the end, I won’t use the analog mods that I paid for, but hey, I wanted to experiment and glad I did it.

Hope this helps some of you.  And a special thanks to Wayne who was very courteous and helpful answering a lot of emails from me.  Greatly appreciated and thanks for the quality work.

Mike

[highfilter]

Great write-up Mike. I was really interested in how the digital mod for the Touch was going to turn out and it sounds like it's a killer combo with the PS. I just got my Wyred4Sound DAC-2 and it indeed does sound amazing with the Touch!

I'll definitely have to look into upgrading my Touch in the future, as it is a great little device.

[markm1111]

Excellent review, and helps clarify my thinking. I currently have a stock Duet running into a Bel Canto Dac 3. I want to improve on this, and theink the digital mod Touch may be just the ticket

[Wayne1]

Thanks for the comments, Mike.

For many years, I had not heard an outboard DAC that sounded better to me than the modded analog output of a SqueezeBox. The analog modded Touch, when used with a good linear power supply, still sounds better than most under $1,000.00 outboard DACs.

The Eastern Electric Mini-Max DAC was the first DAC I heard I could honestly say sounds better. Coupled with a digital modded Touch, it sounds great! Mods will soon be finalized for the EE DAC to take it to an even higher level.

I have not had a chance to hear the W4S of the Bel Canto DAC 3, but I believe the digital modded Touch will make the sound out of them even better.

[mchuckp]

Thanks for the comments, Mike.

For many years, I had not heard an outboard DAC that sounded better to me than the modded analog output of a SqueezeBox. The analog modded Touch, when used with a good linear power supply, still sounds better than most under $1,000.00 outboard DACs.

The Eastern Electric Mini-Max DAC was the first DAC I heard I could honestly say sounds better. Coupled with a digital modded Touch, it sounds great! Mods will soon be finalized for the EE DAC to take it to an even higher level.

I have not had a chance to hear the W4S of the Bel Canto DAC 3, but I believe the digital modded Touch will make the sound out of them even better.

I actually meant to include a comment to that effect Wayne.  Seems like most DACs you read about and the few that I've heard in the lower price categories have pretty mixed reviews and IMO probably not really worth messing with as long as you have a decent CD player.  From what I hear of the analog modded Touch I'm guessing your statement is true.  I think the analog modded Touch likely does better most DACs in the sub-$1K category and at least rivals the others.

I'm sure your EE DAC mods will be very good.  The is also an ESS Sabre based DAC and just like my W4S DAC and Oppo SE, I'm sure it has a similar presentation in the sound (except for being a tube).  Hopefully someday I'll get to hear a stock EE and your modded one.

I definitely didn't mean to attempt to downgrade your analog modded Touch.  It is VERY good and hopefully that was reflected in my comments.  But at least in my set up, using my DAC, the digital mod was definitely the better fit.

[mchuckp]

Just wanted to check back in since my impressions above (post #24).  I've had the Bolder modded Touch/Deluxe Power Supply/Nitro DC cable feeding a W4S DAC-1 running for another week and I gotta say that I have a BIG smile on my face.  I still can't get over how good my system is sounding and I'd swear it gets better every day.  I keep picking up more in recordings that I never noticed before that I've heard hundreds of times.

Listening to Sting's tune "All This Time" right now and it is playing tricks on me.  I'd swear there is another set of speakers hiding somewhere.  Crazy.

Thanks again Wayne. 

[Wayne1]

I keep picking up more in recordings that I never noticed before that I've heard hundreds of times.

Listening to Sting's tune "All This Time" right now and it is playing tricks on me.  I'd swear there is another set of speakers hiding somewhere.  Crazy.

Thanks again Wayne. 

That sort of comment is indicative of a system where the noise floor has been lowered. By "noise" I don't mean grossly audible problems like hiss or hum. What Mike is not hearing is the low level noise that switching power supplies and poor power distribution add in a lot of systems.

Most CD/DVD players use switching PS. When you play a CD/DVD/SACD you are not able to hear all the music has to offer because of this low level noise. Ripping to a hard drive and keep your computer isolated from the music system will help lowering the noise floor. Using linear supplies as much as possible will help even more.

Thanks for the updates, Mike. The sound will continue to improve over the next month.

[Gopher]

Very cool, Mike...  I've been smiling ever since I got my Touch back with the digital modifications.  I briefly compared the modded touch to my cd player transport which had sounded better than the stock Touch with my EE DAC, but I didn't do too much comparing as the difference was obvious and the SQ good enough that I don't plan on using physical discs anymore at all.

I'm using a Bolder modded elpac now with my Touch and can only imagine what the Deluxe adds to the mix.  Wayne knows his stuff!

[kyrill]

i follow this thread with more than real interest
SO Wayne, what is yr opinion of voices recommending the structural shut down of the screen of the Touch as its workings  (seems to) negatively impact the sound?

"..The Touch is supposedly a great product but again it needs some tweaks to get the best out of it - apparently the screen drags down the sonic performance substantially & needs to be turned off.  This can only be done by getting inside the box which is a difficult task"   http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=81041.msg820168#msg820168

[Gopher]

I can't comment on disabling the screen, but I would suggest one simply start with Waynes modifications and assess the need/desire to disable functionality to squeeze further performance.  As is, the Bolder modded Touch's digital out continues to impress me.  So much so that I'm toying with his upcoming EE DAC mods, and I'm a person who has made a point NOT to buy modified gear for re-sale reasons.

Not the answer you were probably looking for, but try it with just the digital mods first before killing the screen.

[Wayne1]

lcrim has followed some scripts that shut down the display upon start-up. He feels that and some software mods do enhance the Touch's performance. I have just modded two of his units. I believe he feels the physical mods are far more revealing that the software mods.

[bprice2]

Regarding shutting down the screen, there may be a less drastic way of doing that if a software solution can be perfected.

John Swenson on the Squeezebox Forums had this to say.

Admittedly unplugging the screen is a pretty drastic tweak. Its certainly not for everybody. I'm working on a way to do it in software so you don't actually have to take the device apart. I actually have it working, and its even more effective than unplugging the sreen (it shuts down the whole video subsystem), but it causes the OS to crash after 30 secs, so I have a little bit of work to do on it!

[kyrill]

Hail to human creativity to make the impossible --> possible and more important to thread paths no one have been before to find the  ultimate recreation of natural experiences

[markm1111]

Just out of interest, what external modifications, if any, are apparent from the digital mod? I noticed in the earlier Duet and SB3 mods the RCA connection was replaced

[Wayne1]

There are no indications of changes externally. There is not enough physical space to replace any connectors with aftermarket ones.

I suppose I can put a sticker on modded units if requested.

[ajayrav]

Hello all,

I've received my modded Touch back from Wayne a week or so ago and it is now being burned in...I also have one of Wayne's older power supplies to power it.  The first system used to test it out will be my headphone rig:  Musical Fidelity X10V3 Quad stack- DAC, Power supply, Tube buffer, headphone amp along with AKG 601 and Audio Technica ATH-AD700 headphones. 

I plan to compare the following:

Unmodded duet with the supplied wall-wart
Unmodded duet with a Channel Islands power supply
ART modded Duet with integrated power supply
Bolder modified (digital) Touch with wall-wart
Bolder modified (Touch) Touch with Bolder power supply

Unfortunately, I do not have an unmodded Touch for comparison.

The other rigs I will be testing on subsequently will be...

Bedroom rig
Cambridge Audio Dac Magic - Marantz Sr8400 receiver - Definitive Technology Mythos STS speakers.  Cabling is a mixture of Audioquest and Reality Cables (Straley)

Living room rig
Bel Canto DAC3 - Bel Canto M300 monoblocks - Morel Octave 5.2M speakers on Morel stands.  Cabling is Cardas and Reality cables. Power Cords are PS audio.

Media Room
Eastern Electric DAC - Primaluna Dialogue One amplifier with KT66 tubes - ACI Sapphire XL speakers on Sound Anchor stands.  Cabling is Audioquest (IC) and Reality (speaker).

More details of individual systems and listening rooms will be provided as we go along.

I hope to have an update for you guys by next week after listening on the headphone rig.  I'm out of the country for the following 3 weeks, but will get started on the non-headphone listening when I return.  It is going to be a fun ride!!!

BTW, I must give props to Wayne for putting up with delays caused by my recent house move, as well as the super-quick turn-around time once I shipped my Touch to him.

Cheers,
Ajay