The new Onix Ref 1's vs. 1801's

JonP · « **on:** 24 Jan 2003, 05:36 pm »

From everything I read I would expect them to be very close to the 1801's. Has anyone directly compared these two? Looks like it'd be a fun listening session

Although I think the hiquophon tweeter would be a bit sweeter. Anyway, let me know what ya guys think.

Al Garay · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Jan 2003, 05:25 am »

Since not many people have compared these two, you can approach this question differently by stating what you are looking for:
* intended use: music % versus home theater %
* what type of music you like
* what the rest of the system looks like (amp, pre-, source...)Perhaps you can attack this
* what your room looks like: size and flooring (geez, I sound like a salesman)
* diy or already made
* big bucks or best value

I am extremely happy with my 1801s. But, I would not mind Linkwitz Orion or Selah Audio Excellarray or BESL Series 5 or a full HT system made up of GR-Research AV3, AV1+ if HT was most important and I wanted best value.

Al

JonP · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 Jan 2003, 01:11 pm »

I guess I should of said if one was trying to find the most musically accurate speaker, true to the source, the Ref. 1's look like they'll come pretty close to the 1801's. I read a review on avsforum comparing the Ref 1's to the RS 750's and they were described pretty similar to Jackman's comparison of the 1801's to the 750's, little less bass, but still tight and punchy, and much more revealing mids and highs. As far as I know there's only about 2 or 3 people who own the Ref 1's up on avsforum.com so a direct comparison is probably not gonna happen. How would you project these speakers would perform against your 1801's Dave? But they still sell for $1,500 so it looks like you're still the man

David Ellis · « **Reply #3 on:** 29 Jan 2003, 08:34 pm »

Jon,

I am a little bit slow on the uptake. It took me a few minutes to recall the name... "Reference 1".

I generally don't comment on my on product. I certainly could, but find the words of other folks have more meaning. Any manufacturer has an obvious self interest. I could list all of the reasons that the 1801 performs well, but this would be somewhat pointless. It would also consume a huge amount of time.

I have never compared the Ref 1 to the 1801, but suspect the sound would be extremely similar. Eventually I suppose someone will compare the two speakers. It might happen sooner. It might happen later. Who knows???

I don't really mind someone else producing the Ref 1 though. I surely don't have time to meet the immediate need of my customers wanting completed speakers. If the Ref 1 crossover is competent, then the greater good will be served. The OW1, and W18E001 are exceptional drivers! They should not be kept a secret.

Also, I did consider ribbons - heavily. When I spent 3 1/2 days at CES 2002 I had a few objectives. One of them was to spend some time with ribbons. The very good ribbons and the very good domes both can sound exceptional, but I prefer the sound of domes. The domes seemed to have a dynamic smooth sound. The ribbons seem to have a detailed edgy sound. I don't really have a solid explanation why this is. I can guess though.

Ribbon folks claim lower diaphram weight. I agree. This is where the detail comes from.

I also believe that domes have better mechanical suspension. I cannot, unfortunately, cite any hard science. I can only look at the edge of the diaphram and see something that dampens the dome diaphram. With a ribbon/planar there is generally nothing special (or nothing at all) present at the edge of the diaphram. Ferrofluid, special edge coating, or some other method generally serve to dampen a dome (like a shock absorber). This is where the smoothness comes from. Domes stop/start smoother.

Dave

David Ellis · « **Reply #4 on:** 30 Jan 2003, 04:18 am »

John,

I might have gotten mixed up about these speakers. Could you provide a direct link to them? I found the stuff on a Canadien Reference 1, but I don't think this is the same speaker. If you could provide some links, that'd be helpful.

After some searching I found about 5 different Reference 1 monitors. I am sure that I responded prematurely. If you provide me some solid links to the homepage for these sites I might be able to lend some insight into the drivers and such.

Dave

JonP · « **Reply #5 on:** 30 Jan 2003, 05:25 pm »

Sorry for confusing you Dave. www.av123.com is the site that sells the Rocket line, but they currently don't have the Ref 1's up there yet. If you go to http://www.av123.com/about_news.php you'll see the link "Introducing Onix Reference Loudspeakers". That's all the published information I know that's out there. If you want to get in on all they hype you can always go over to www.avsforum.com and do search in the "speakers" forum for "onix ref" and that'll give you 2 pages of threads to look at. Here's a pic of one I found
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?s=&postid=1542238&fullpage=1

Al Garay · « **Reply #6 on:** 30 Jan 2003, 07:09 pm »

JonP,

The Reference 1 uses the same Vifa XT tweeter as the Rocket 750. The woofer is not aluminum. There is no mention of the vendor so it could be from the same manufacturer as the aluminum woofer... made in China. You would need to contact Rocket Loudspeakers to get the details.

When I decided on the Ellis, I spent hours researching every little component that was used in them and compared to the quality of components used in other loudspeakers. You can gain valuable information on the Vifa XT tweeter and other loudspeaker design issues by doing a search in the Madisound forum, http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/discuss.cgi?search

Because of the high-volume, they archives do not go back very long. But there is enough information there comparing the Vifa XT25 to other tweeters, especially the Hiquphon OW1, look at JeffB's reviews, that you should get a good idea of the quality differences. Also, linkwitzlabs.com, has test results on tweeters and woofers. Unfortunately, the Hiquphon was not in the survey but the overall best was the Seas Millenium tweeter, which then you can find JeffB's comments comparing the Millenium to the Hiquphon. The Seas Excel drivers are among the best you can get. Focal, Eton and ScanSpeak are others that have high praises. And there are a bunch more that are less common: Accuton, PHL, ...

Look at the cost of those components and you will see that Dave does not make much if any profit. Certainly less when you account the level of support he offers. Read Dave's website carefully and you will understand his philosophy. He is not about over-hype advertising such as what I read in some manufactures' claims.

The drivers used by Rocket Loudspeakers are descent but, in my opinion, not close to the quality and performance of the 1801s. I bet they are no better than the ones GR-Research uses for his AV series, which provides a lot better value. The GR-Research Criterion would be far superior, costs about $800 or so for the kit. And it is arguable whether the Criterion would be better than the 1801s. Jackman doesn't think so.

You can make up your own mind by contacting the loudspeaker manufacturer's you are interested in and try to setup auditions. Ask them to either send you a set or see if they can contact a local customer who is willing to let you checkout his system. That's what I did. Unfortuntely, I could not for all the models I wanted to try out, but that also told me more about the quality of service provided by those vendors who were willing to work with you. If they do that for you now, then it's a good sign they will be there to help you when you have trouble with the crossover or you have a bad woofer ... all the mistakes that I did and got fast and friendly support from Dave.

Do some research, ask a bunch of questions and you will know who works the best for you.

Al

OBF · « **Reply #7 on:** 30 Jan 2003, 10:56 pm »

Speaking of the Onix Reference drivers, I was just reading through a couple of the threads on AVScience yesterday and wondering why the Ref 1 and 2 cost about a thousand dollars more than the corresponding Rocket speakers. Compared to the Rocket 750s, The Ref 2 has a more pedestrian cabinet, the same tweeter, and 2 woofs instead of 4. Even if they're much more expensive drivers and they have a better crossover, it seems Onix must have really pumped up their margin on these models. I hope there's a worthwhile improvement, but I'd still bet on the 1801 or Criterion for less money.

JonP · « **Reply #8 on:** 31 Jan 2003, 12:36 am »

Yeah, I heard that the drivers in the Rocket 750's were less than $10 each. I'm surprised they got them to sound as good as they did. I guess that just shows what a good crossover can do. I'm sure the drivers they use in their reference line are at least $50. But yeah, it does seem kinda steep to jump up another grand just for a little more expensive drivers. I'd love to see how they'd compare against the humble AV-1+'s.

David Ellis · « **Reply #9 on:** 31 Jan 2003, 05:33 am »

My speakers with Danny Richie's last-generation drivers are at my mothers home. The woofer was darn good, but the tweeter.... oh! I can comment on that Tweeter. It is/was an astounding value. I have experimented with some other tweeters such as the Vifa D25 (decent), SEAS 883 (a little harsh), SEAS 27TFFC, and have spent considerable time with the SEAS T25CF001, and a little time with the SS9500. Danny's older "eyeball" tweeter had much more in common with the $75 tweeters than the $25 tweeters. That thing was darn good. It was very smooth, and pretty darn detailed too.

I heard there were some problems recreating that tweeter in its origional form from the supplier, but the origional was excellent. IMO, it was the very best tweeter on the low side of $50. I don't know if the new tweeter is the same or different than the old tweeter. Hopefully it is darn close to the same thing.

As such, I feel very good that Danny's little AV1 would hold up quite well against the stuff from Onyx. Some folks underestimate Danny's little AV1. I have heard it. IMO, the AV1 is easily in the $800-$1500 zone commercially - maybe more.

Dave

jackman · « **Reply #10 on:** 31 Jan 2003, 02:52 pm »

Dave,
I have heard Danny's newest AV1's and have to say that I was very impressed with their quality and sound. They did not sound like inexpensive speakers in any way...and that was before I improved my system. People are thrown off by the low price and the lack of "pedigree" in those drivers. It's kind of cool and refreshing to hear someone speak so highly about the "competition".

J

JonP · « **Reply #11 on:** 31 Jan 2003, 03:45 pm »

Yeah, I guess I was underestimating the AV1's. I didn't realize just how overpriced market speakers are. The reason why I thought they were different is because the RS 750 was said to compare very favorably to the Paradigm Studio 100 at $2,250 retail. I still don't see how they get away with selling a $1.4k speaker with dirt cheap drivers. That just goes to show how much the Studio 100's were marked up. Anyway, I'm finally starting to see that there's no substitute for DIY.

I'm sure glad I've got a pair of 1801's comin

Now I just need to find amps to match 'em. I was thinking of the nOrh MB-250's when they come out. I hope they're similar to the Odyssey mono's.

David Ellis · « **Reply #12 on:** 31 Jan 2003, 06:28 pm »

I don't know that this is the most accurate way to assess the RS750 speaker. The simple question to ask is, "how much $ does it take to get raw materials from the ground to the consumer". It might seem that commercial XXX speaker is a rip-off, but I really don't think so. Those folks are operating under a traditional business model, and the overhead is HUGE! Then there are taxes, insurance, maintenance... I don't envy their position. They are all competing with the same set of guidelines for business. It is tough - oh yes. There is some more "stuff" on this issue in the "Why DIY" secion of my webpage.

As you mention the concept of "overpriced" speakers, something else comes to mind. There is a brilliant guy that builds amplifiers and preamps that has VERY low ovehead. Frank VanAlstine has been working in the electronics end of HiFi for about 35 years, and works from a modest home in Burnesville, MN. I visited with Frank a couple years ago while on vacation and was very impressed by what he said and what I heard.

On a subsequent occasion I a/b compared my Bryston 3B-St with a FET valve amplifier. The Bryston had a harsh edge that simply was not present in the FET valve. And the FET valve wasn't lacking in detail. I suspect that the rest of his product line is exceptional too. Frank operates from a very humble business model. I suspect that a very high portion of a customers $ is realized in Frank's amplifiers.

Eventually (maybe this summer), I'll be able to get my wife's ears in front of Frank's stuff. A purchase of this size will surely require her approval.

On a budget, I recommend a Jolida 302b. I am using one currently and find it very pleasing.

Dave

JonP · « **Reply #13 on:** 31 Jan 2003, 07:24 pm »

Yeah, I'm just so glad there's people who DIY and sell it to us at a great price.

How would you say the Jolida 302b compares to your Bryston 3B-ST. Is 50 watts enough to get your 1801's singing. TNT audio said the bass is somewhat rolled off, what's your impression?

David Ellis · « **Reply #14 on:** 1 Feb 2003, 07:27 am »

John,

I think the 302b sounds very nice. Overall, I like it better than the Bryston amp / Creek passive preamp combo that is about 2x$ retail. The Jolida has a wee bit less detail, but sounds much nicer overall. I am very glad that I have a taste of tubes in my living room. I haven't turned on my Bryston since I received the Jolida about 3 weeks ago.

The 50wpc rating on the 302b is a little deceiving though. This rating limits the range and therefore the distortion through the amp. The manufacturer kinda' cheats up to 50wpc, but drops the rated response down to @28hz-15khz.

Realisitically, any EL34 Push Pull will have a good 30-35wpc and this is plenty IMO.

I don't think the 302b bass is rolled off, but... I am not into heavy 20hz rumble. The 1801 will get a good 40hz and the Jolida performs wonderfully in this region. I suppose the tubes might be limited at 20hz. I don't mind this though. There isn't any music down that low.

Dave

droliver · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 01:09 am »

Very educational thread in re. to the quality of the drivers used in some other speakers versus Dave's 1801's. It looks like the VIFA XT tweeters have been a pretty big hit among desighners as witnessed by their inclusion in new desighns by nOrh, Meadowlark, Onix/Rocket, Polk, Krell, Audio Physic, and others. Are the Hiquphon & SEAS drivers in the 1801 used in many of the larger commercial speaker manufacturers products? Also, any opinion on the quality of the in-house desighns from B&W & Thiel versus those available to the DIY crowd (scanspeak,vifa,etc...)?

thanks guys!

David Ellis · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 06:55 am »

For more reading about what drivers are used where, I suggest you go here:

http://www.snippets.org/ldsg/sect-14.php3

This list obviously isn't all inclusive.

The Hiquphon is found almost nowhere commercially. I don't know why this is, but I am fine with it. I know how it sounds. Maybe the commercial guys find that the nifty ring tweeter from Vifa has more sales/marketing potential. Maybe they don't think a 3/4" tweeter can get the job done. I don't really care. Using the Hiquphon tweeter is my gain and their loss.

I saw the W18 installed in 2 commercial speakers at the 2002 CES. One of the was the Joseph Audio RM40 (now called the Pearl). The other was a mostrous California Audio Technology (CAT) speaker. The Taylor speakers use the slightly older W17, but I bet they will likely changeover to the W18. The Joseph Audio 33 and Burmester 99 both use the 5" excel driver. There are a few others, but I don't know where they are found.

I really don't know who/where/how about the Thiel drivers. I know that once upon a time they were loosely associated with Accuton, but I don't know where Thiel drivers originate now.

Someone told me the B&W stuff is made in China at B&W's own factory. I cannot verify this though.

There really isn't anything that I cannot get in a driver at this point. If I wanted something different, well, I could get it. Just because a driver is an off the shelf unit doesn't make it inferior to others. The factories that make drivers aim at a T/S parameter set that should be effective for that driver. Custom T/S changes might detract from the intended performance window of a given driver. The guys at SEAS, Skaaning, & Accuton surely know what they are doing when they design a driver. After all, they do want them to sound good and the do want to sell them.

There is a pretty slick shareware program called the driver parameter calculator. This will address the T/S compromises present in drivers. It is posted here:

http://home10.inet.tele.dk/cfuttrup/dpc.htm

There are certainly other issues too, but this program hits a good portion of the issues present in driver compromise.

Hopefully this addresses your question.

Dave

audiojerry · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 05:02 pm »

I learned something interesting a few years back, and I don't know how valid it is, but I once built a couple of Dynaudio kits that I got from Madisound. The Dynaudio drivers came with a Dynaudio logo that was accented in red. I was not very pleased with the outcome of either kit. When I went took my finished speakers a Dynaudio dealer to compare them side-by-side with the commercial versions, the commercial ones sounded way better.

The dealer told me something that really got me wondering. He said that Dynaudio only provided their best drivers to oem manufacturers and themselves, and that the secondary customers like Madisound only got factory seconds, which were drivers that did not meet their required QA checks after production. He said you can identify the factory seconds by the red labels, whereas the better quality drivers have a blue label.

Sure enough when he showed me the Esotec Tweeter in the commercial speaker, it had a blue label, and my Esotec Tweeter had a red label. That did it for me. I wonder if that is also true of other driver makers like ScanSpeak/Vifa, Peerless, etc.

I guess Madisound no longer offers Dynaudio drivers to the general public.

asull2k · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Feb 2003, 07:38 pm »

Dynaudio closed their driver availability to the diy market fairly recently, within the past 5 years. They are still available from esoteric places but at a much higher cost than before because they are now somewhat a rarity. Kind of a shame, as the woofers can perform very well and it would have been interesting to play around with the Esotar-2's.

Jim Thiel as far as I know was never associated with Accuton. In places outside the U.S., Accuton is known as "Thiel & Partner", but to avoid confusion they are "Accuton" in the U.S.. Thiel and B&W make their drivers in-house for the most part, although Thiel has used Vifa tweets in the past (non-concentric). PM me if you want subjective opinions on drivers.

TheeeChosenOne · « **Reply #19 on:** 21 May 2003, 11:06 pm »

How does the Norh 9 and/or ACI Saphire compare on a parts/sound/price ratio vs. the Ellis and/or GR Research stuff?.... I suppose VMPS models also stack up pretty well in the regard, right?

Margins are interesting to me b/c one then truly gets a feel of whether they're getting ripped off or not.