[Steve]

I think that's actually a good thing for you...when I owned the TADAC, I believe it was a 2007 model with the volume control & tubbiness knob...and having two sets of volume controls in the chain made the presentation sound somewhat distant and perhaps a little anemic, so I actually preferred to leave the 10A out and use the TADAC as a standalone through my Plinius amp because of that. I'm currently using a Metric Halo ULN-2 and enjoying it very much. I agree with Eric that the 10A is very sensitive to tube rolling and the right choice can really 'dial in' your system nicely.

For superior results, I recommend the opposite; using the 10A's superior gainstage and bypassing the inferior analog/mute sections in DAC/CD players, and feeding the analog ouput directly from the DAC chip itself. Player's analog/mute sections are just not designed that well, compared to the 10A.

Cheers.

[ajzepp]

For superior results, I recommend the opposite; using the 10A's superior gainstage and bypassing the inferior analog/mute sections in DAC/CD players, and feeding the analog ouput directly from the DAC chip itself. Player's analog/mute sections are just not designed that well, compared to the 10A. Why use a cheap analog stage, a weak link, while spending thousands on the rest of the system?

Cheers.

Hey Steve....yep, I definitely plan to run a digital connection from my squeezebox to the DAC, and I expect that will take things to a new level just like it did before.   

BTW, I know I've mentioned a few times above about how much separation I'm hearing between instruments....is that just something that comes along with higher end preamps, cause I've honestly never heard it to THIS degree before. Maggies are known for their large soundstage, but no so much for their imaging....but that's all changed with the 10A. Instruments are much more distinct and the imaging is quite strong. Hopefully improving the source with a DAC will bring the vocals out just a LITTLE more front and center, and I'll be happy as a clam. Then I get start looking into tube rolling

[Steve]

I wasn't recommending the TADAC over the 10A for that purpose...what I was saying is that I couldn't get the TADAC and the 10A to play nice together when they were both here, so I sold the TADAC. Now I'm feeding the analog output of my Metric Halo DAC to the 10A, which was a much better choice for me.

No harm meant by me Larkston. 

I think we happened onto something that will help newbies in their understanding, and that is CD players and DACs have analog and mute stages after the Digital to Analog converter chip. The gain is rather low, only around 2 (doubling of signal), which equals approximately 6db of gain. I have found eliminating these inferior gainstages helps the sound. I don't think I explained it very well earlier which probably confused some.

Cheers.

[Larkston Zinaspic]

No harm meant by me Larkston. 

I think we happened onto something that will help newbies in their understanding, and that is CD players and DACs have analog and mute stages after the Digital to Analog converter chip. The gain is rather low, only around 2 (doubling of signal), which equals approximately 6db of gain. I have found eliminating these inferior gainstages helps the sound. I don't think I explained it very well earlier which probably confused some.

Cheers.

No problem, Steve...I may have even confused myself there.

At the risk of sounding completely noobish, are there any DACs you would recommend or do you think they all need to be modified to suit your tastes?

Gordin Rankin recently said he doesn't use opamps or feedback anywhere, and that he would use discrete transistors for gain. The Metric Halo gear isn't quite 'high-end' yet, according to Mr. Rankin.

[ajzepp]

I wasn't recommending the TADAC over the 10A for that purpose...what I was saying is that I couldn't get the TADAC and the 10A to play nice together when they were both here, so I sold the TADAC. Now I'm feeding the analog output of my Metric Halo DAC to the 10A, which was a much better choice for me.

I think I sort of took it as Steve did, lol. I thought you were saying you chose to go with the TADAC's preamp section in lieu of using just its DAC section and a separate pre. I think I played around with the TADAC as a pre/DAC once or twice, but it never even crossed my mind that that would somehow surpass the TADAC's DAC into my Mapletree.

Paul's apparently on vacation this week...hope he gets back in town soon so I can send him some money!

I also talked to the same tube  guy who helped me find some upgrades for my Mapletree....he's already given me some nice choices for the 10A, so can't wait to get all into that, too.

[ajzepp]

BTW, Steve, I took the day off today and have done a good deal of listening. I'm pretty sure the 10A has a break-in period lol. Over the last hour I've revisited the same tracks I played at first listen, and they're even more opened up now than they were then. The squeezebox has never sounded this good! I'm more convinced that ever that I NEED a tube pre in my system. I could have been very happy with my Mapletree, and now this is like a surplus of riches. Even the vocals are becoming more front and center, which I was waiting for. I still can't get over the crispness of the percussion, the imaging, and the low end punch. It's also very easily passed the "MP3 test". With a SS preamp, MP3s are just sterile and nearly unlistenable to my ears. With a tube pre they have much more life and are much more enjoyable.

I'm decided....ur not getting it back

[Larkston Zinaspic]

I think I sort of took it as Steve did, lol. I thought you were saying you chose to go with the TADAC's preamp section in lieu of using just its DAC section and a separate pre. I think I played around with the TADAC as a pre/DAC once or twice, but it never even crossed my mind that that would somehow surpass the TADAC's DAC into my Mapletree.

Well, I confess that I've always been a poor communicator, but the main point I was trying to make was that Paul's DAC and Steve's line stage did not work well in conjunction in my system--or, the system I had at that time. I haven't had this experience with any other DAC since I've owned the 10A. I'm still very happy with the 10A, and a friend of mine now owns my former TADAC unit and is very happy with it. If synergy is the key, it's obviously something I've had a knack for avoiding for a very long time.

I got the impression that the two sets of volume controls between these pieces had a negative effect on the sound, but I'm not blaming Paul or Steve for that...that's just the way it is sometimes.

[ajzepp]

Well, I confess that I've always been a poor communicator, but the main point I was trying to make was that Paul's DAC and Steve's line stage did not work well in conjunction in my system--or, the system I had at that time. I haven't had this experience with any other DAC since I've owned the 10A. I'm still very happy with the 10A, and a friend of mine now owns my former TADAC unit and is very happy with it. If synergy is the key, it's obviously something I've had a knack for avoiding for a very long time.

I got the impression that the two sets of volume controls between these pieces had a negative effect on the sound, but I'm not blaming Paul or Steve for that...that's just the way it is sometimes.

I know exactly what you mean, because I expressed that very concern to Paul before pulling the trigger on the TADAC. This is what he said about it at the time: "The volume control is nested between gain stages in a fixed environment, No audible pot side effects are encountered in this type of circuitry design. The Tubyness knob is like a 2nd order harmonic control, slight volume change encountered too." Now I don't profess to understand much of that at all, but at the time it was a satisfactory explanation and I went ahead with the purchase. I actually had very nice synergy between it and the Mapletree. Hopefully the 10A will play nice with the new TDAC!

[Steve]

No problem, Steve...I may have even confused myself there.

At the risk of sounding completely noobish, are there any DACs you would recommend or do you think they all need to be modified to suit your tastes?

Put it on my tab Lark. It has been awhile, but Bernie, from St. Louis, has one that sounds quite good (I remodded it a little) but I forgot the brand and model. Several years ago I did hear a California Audio Labs (I believe tube analog) that sounded quite good as well.

Cheers.

[Steve]

Hey Steve....yep, I definitely plan to run a digital connection from my squeezebox to the DAC, and I expect that will take things to a new level just like it did before.   

BTW, I know I've mentioned a few times above about how much separation I'm hearing between instruments....is that just something that comes along with higher end preamps, cause I've honestly never heard it to THIS degree before. Maggies are known for their large soundstage, but no so much for their imaging....but that's all changed with the 10A. Instruments are much more distinct and the imaging is quite strong. Hopefully improving the source with a DAC will bring the vocals out just a LITTLE more front and center, and I'll be happy as a clam. Then I get start looking into tube rolling

Hi AJ,

I didn't see, blind I guess, this question until now so I apologize. Yes the separation, quality of sound etc that you mention is a result of being closer to being transparent in absolute terms, which is the result of both design and parts quality, so I could say "higher end preamps", but there is more involved.

I tested and found the parts that sound the most transparent in absolute terms and then found the tube which met my criteria and passed my proprietary listening tests, whereas others design around a tube.
There is actually a huge difference between the two philosophies.

I hesitate to say price is important since price is actually not related to
transparency/sonic quality beyond a certain breakpoint point. It took me years to develop multiple listening tests that I could use to determine true and absolute transparency.

Of course when a preamplifier is added a pair of ICs is also added which can taint the transparency/sound quality because of its own sonic signature. So it is important to have a truly transparent IC when testing; to achieve a preamplifier with transparency in absolute terms.

Cheers.

[ajzepp]

Thanks, Steve...all I know is whatever you did, it worked. I'm honestly in awe of how distinct each instrument is, and for whatever reason the vocals are more center stage now than they were (break in?). I've just always figured it was the recording that was causing things to sound sort of mushy with certain tracks, but even on some of those tracks I considered mushy I'm getting a nice, distinct separation now. I think anyone with Maggies who isn't happy with the imaging needs to buy a 10A lol. When you combine an already massive soundstage (Maggie strength) with more precise imaging, it's a pretty awesome experience. MP3s sound so good that I've felt more comfortable buying MP3s off Amazon and iTunes. I still only buy the actual CD if it's an artist I really treasure, but for a pop song here and there, they sound so good that I'm fine spending the buck on a song here and there.

I heard back from Paul at Tube Audio Design today and am in the process of placing an order for a TDAC, and then after that I'll probably head back over to your site to check out some ICs. 

[Steve]

Thanks, Steve...all I know is whatever you did, it worked. I'm honestly in awe of how distinct each instrument is, and for whatever reason the vocals are more center stage now than they were (break in?). I've just always figured it was the recording that was causing things to sound sort of mushy with certain tracks, but even on some of those tracks I considered mushy I'm getting a nice, distinct separation now.

Thanks AJ. I think alot of individuals may have the impression that the recordings are a problem, which many if not most are because of the poor electronics (besides the mics) so often used.

But you demonstrated that even minimalist quality recordings can sound better,  that minimal manipulated recordings (such as live etc) and higher quality playback electronics can and do improve musical performances and listening pleasure. For me, realism is what it is all about.

Thanks for bringing this information to our attention AJ.

Cheers.
Steve