[gaetan8888]

Hello

Few month ago, I've done a poll and check some others poll on few forums and web sites about how peoples chose their amps wen come the time to buy.

The results was all quite similars. Most buyers of mid and high end audio amps will look for the "famous" brands names (even wen they don't sound so good), and in second place they will want a very nice look for the case, and at the third position they will listen to the amps but a lot of guys will listen to the salesmen to know if the amp sound good.

Lot of guys will not buy a very good sounding amp if the case don't look nice or very nice or if it's an unknow brand.

That's why lot of high end amp companies will put more money on a superb nice looking case but much less on the design, I know few companies who put few thousant dollar on the case. If they do that it's because many costumers will buy it.

I know guys who check in the product leaflet the physical size of the power supply capacitors before buying, they assume that the bigger the capacitors is the better the amp should be... you will see often in amp product web sites a photo of the BIG power supply capacitors. And almost none of those companies will use a PI filter in the power supply to cut the RF noise coming from the line.

But Hugh use PI filter in the power supply of his amps.

As Hugh said, it's a tough business.

Bye

Gaetan

[bhobba]

Hi Guys.

Just got off the phone chatting to Mike about the DAC shootout where we heard the NAKSA.  I was ordering the new DAC he is producing.  I reported my impressions and the impression of the group that heard it.  Mike's impression however was not part of that - in fact I hadn't spoke to him about it until just then.

His view is this is one excellent sounding amp.  It does not sound at all like transistors - it has a unique, smooth, beguiling, non fatiguing and very good sound all of its own.  He likes it a lot and is gob smacked by its value.  Now for the crunch - in his view in only one area was it inferior to those Macintosh's - bass control.  But get this - in other areas such as a non fatiguing, non transistor like sound it trumps those Macs.  So what can we say here - one of the best loudspeaker designers in this country overall rates it comparable to his monster reference amps.  Sure in one area they fall a little short but in other areas they shine - but overall comparable.  Mike is obviously too experienced to be swayed by any volume matching issue.

I want to add I would not describe the sound as smooth - to me it was a bit lively.  But this is Mikes view - not mine.

Hugh no need to fear - even against this type of competition it held up - not inferior - just a little different.  The truth will out in the end.  At any listening session you will get a divergence of opinions but I think we can give a greater weight to guys like Mike.  In the interest of honesty I believe it was necessary for me to report what I heard and what others said.  And I did learn something - we must always SPL match even when the comparison is being conducted by experienced people.  But the truth always outs.  This is a $20K amp here lads - make up your own mind about how you want to spend your money.  I know how I want to spend it - in fact that's how I did spend it.

And guy's I have further comparisons in mind that will be better conducted.  Knowing now it stood up to an amp that many judge the best they have ever heard - well watch out.

Thanks
Bill

[LM]

His view is this is one excellent sounding amp.

Hi Bill,

I suspect that Mikes comments raise an interesting point about experience.  I have slowly but inevitably over the years come to the conclusion that I need to live with a component for quite a while until I feel I can offer a really worthwhile overall judgement or opinion.  Perhaps as you imply, Mike has the ability to focus in on the salient points far faster than us less experienced mortals.

I personally am getting better at 'listening' now days and feel I can discern differences faster and more reliably than I once could but it still takes quite some time and I no longer try to swap quickly between components to get the 'feel' of an amp.  I feel that taking the time to get to know the amp gives me a better appreciation.  I used to struggle to tell any difference once and I would certainly fail a 'blind' test every time even today if there were distractions or insufficient time to come to grips with the sound, but I'm sure very experienced people like Mike would be quite quick at grasping the essentials.

In another thread I started, I passed on the conclusions I had come to re the relative sound of all the Aspen Amps I have heard for long enough to warrant comment.  It took quite a while to get to those conclusions but to my mind the individual amp characteristics are quite ingrained in my mind now and the NAKSA/Soraya etc always sound consistent to me every time I hear one.

[bhobba]

As Hugh said, it's a tough business.

You are correct.  One thing I have always noticed about the people that post here.  They are usually very technically literate.  They know what you say above is true.  At the DAC shootout we have a well respected commercial offering the WFS.  To be blunt it was outclassed and some of the DAC's that did that were cheaper.  But those DAC's were all built like Hugh builds his amps.  The general public simply does not realize you get better value and a better product at a cheaper price by avoiding the big boys.  But then again you cant go down to your local hi fi store and enjoy the experience of dealing with sales staff in a commercial setting like they are used to for the other stuff they buy.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

I suspect that Mikes comments raise an interesting point about experience.  I have slowly but inevitably over the years come to the conclusion that I need to live with a component for quite a while until I feel I can offer a really worthwhile overall judgement or opinion.  Perhaps as you imply, Mike has the ability to focus in on the salient points far faster than us less experienced mortals. I personally am getting better at 'listening' now days and feel I can discern differences faster and more reliably than I once could but it still takes quite some time and I no longer try to swap quickly between components to get the 'feel' of an amp.  I feel that taking the time to get to know the amp gives me a better appreciation.  I used to struggle to tell any difference once and I would certainly fail a 'blind' test every time even today if there were distractions or insufficient time to come to grips with the sound, but I'm sure very experienced people like Mike would be quite quick at grasping the essentials. In another thread I started, I passed on the conclusions I had come to re the relative sound of all the Aspen Amps I have heard for long enough to warrant comment.  It took quite a while to get to those conclusions but to my mind the individual amp characteristics are quite ingrained in my mind now and the NAKSA/Soraya etc always sound consistent to me every time I hear one.

I agree but we all have to start somewhere.  Yes a listening test like this will have fits and starts, there will be issues like my reports but Hugh has a quality product here.  The truth will out.  What is important here is people actually get to listen to the amp.  I had a couple of guys come up to me and say is this the NAKSA they had read about on the internet.  They always wanted to hear an Aspen amp but never had.  People who post to the forum are so enthusiastic about it they really wanted to see what the buzz was about.  While hearing the amp two people came up to me and said - great - they were really impressed - they can now see what the buzz was about.  It was only when the Macs were switched in a little negativity crept into it.  But really that is part and parcel of gatherings like this.  The truth outed in the end.

Thanks
Bill

[Greg Erskine]

Hi Tim

It is over on SNA - check out:
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php/26992-DAC-Shootout

Steve Garlands Killer DAC won it.  Take my word for it - that is one great DAC.

Thanks
Bill

Hi Bill,

I meet Steve a few months ago. I didn't hear the killer DAC but one of his CD players and some of his "special" CDs on a SGR rig, a very enjoyable experience.

Steve is the most passionate, enthusatic audiophile I have ever meet (by a long margin), quite inspiring. Each and every one of his CDs has a fasinating story behind them.

regards

[bhobba]

I meet Steve a few months ago. I didn't hear the killer DAC but one of his CD players and some of his "special" CDs on a SGR rig, a very enjoyable experience.Steve is the most passionate, enthusatic audiophile I have ever meet (by a long margin), quite inspiring. Each and every one of his CDs has a fasinating story behind them.

Hi Greg

And then some.  He floored me with his knowledge.  And the Killer DAC is something special.  But those direct from the master disks - my my.

Thanks
Bill

[AKSA]

Hugh no need to fear - even against this type of competition it held up - not inferior - just a little different.]

This is good news, Bill.     The output stage of the Mac has FIVE pairs of very large transistors;  the NAKSA 70 has just one pair.  This explains the bass.  But, within it's power rating, the bass is stronger than all of my other amps except the Maya, which is rated to 150W into 8R and uses THREE pairs of outputs per channel.

That said, I take my hat off to the Mac because building very large bipolar power amps with high resolution and refinement is an exceptionally difficult challenge.  The bigger they are, the more coarse they generally become - witness V8 engines, a similar paradigm.  It is very, very difficult to make a 6 litre V8 which rivals a 3 litre straight six for refinement.  The best V8s are Japanese and German, of course.

Again, my thanks - to you and to Mike!    

Do you have your NAKSA up and running at home now Bill?  And, where can I buy Steve Garland's DAC?   

Cheers,

Hugh

[bhobba]

This is good news, Bill.     The output stage of the Mac has FIVE pairs of very large transistors;  the NAKSA 70 has just one pair.  This explains the bass.  But, within it's power rating, the bass is stronger than all of my other amps except the Maya, which is rated to 150W into 8R and uses THREE pairs of outputs per channel.

Yea - Mike is a lot more experienced at this sort of stuff so it is no surprise he could quickly hone in on the real issue.  But I have to say level matched and not played loud that difference could be a lot harder to pick. 

That said, I take my hat off to the Mac because building very large bipolar power amps with high resolution and refinement is an exceptionally difficult challenge.  The bigger they are, the more coarse they generally become - witness V8 engines, a similar paradigm.  It is very, very difficult to make a 6 litre V8 which rivals a 3 litre straight six for refinement.  The best V8s are Japanese and German, of course.

These are legendary amps Hugh that quite a few say are the best there is.  While horrendously expensive they are not the most expensive out there by a long shot so this is a credit to the designer.  While over the top price wise there are good reasons why they should be expensive.  It is a real credit to you the NAKSA can go toe to toe with this amp and to be overall comparable.

Again, my thanks - to you and to Mike!   

You are most welcome.  Mike really wanted to listen to your new amp and from what he told me was not disappointed.  I also want to mention they drove both the ML1's and the new ML3's with ease so guys interested in those speakers can get the amp with confidence. 

Do you have your NAKSA up and running at home now Bill?

Not yet Hugh.  Its still down there right now for people to listen to if they wish.  Will take a trip down to Mike's to pick it up and check out against my little Sonaofagum in the next few days.  But when my Tranquility DAC finally arrives and Mike completes his new PDX I ordered from him in the next few weeks I will be doing comparison at my place.  For that the remote volume control of the Redgum will help a lot with my arthritis so I will be using that and sending the NAKSA to some trusted acquaintances in Sydney and Perth for them to check out.  Once the DAC issue is sorted out I will be getting a remote pre amp and the NAKSA will take pride of place.

And, where can I buy Steve Garland's DAC?

That DAC has reached a bit of a cult status here in Aus so much so a forum has been established to discuss it.  Where to get the DAC is one of the main topics:
http://killerdac.com/forum/index.php?topic=49.0

Also Hugh once I have checked out the Tranquility and PDX on my system I will be sending them to the same guys to check out and review. I was thinking you may like to check them out as well.  Interested?

Thanks
Bill

[gaetan8888]

Hello Bill

I've look at the Killer dac forum, very informative, seeing few photos and some texts, it's a TDA1541A non-oversampling dac using a passive IV/ resistor and tube output and very best parts aviable.

If I've read it correctly, there is few mod version of this dac
and the parts qualities play a big role in it's sound qualities ?

Have you try it at home on classical orchestral music with the Naksa ?

It would be interesting if Hugh could try this dac with the Naksa and Soraya, with some various music including classical orchestral music.

Thank

Bye

Gaetan

[bhobba]

I've look at the Killer dac forum, very informative, seeing few photos and some texts, it's a TDA1541A non-oversampling dac using a passive IV/ resistor and tube output and very best parts aviable. If I've read it correctly, there is few mod version of this dac and the parts qualities play a big role in it's sound qualities ? Have you try it at home on classical orchestral music with the Naksa ?It would be interesting if Hugh could try this dac with the Naksa and Soraya, with some various music including classical orchestral music.

Hi Gaetan

Your technical details look correct.  What makes this DAC special is the incredible knowledge of its maker - Steven Garland.  I had the chance at the shootout to personally see that knowledge in action - very very impressive.

And yes even above the DAC he supplies both he and others can suggest further mods.  If I remember the NAKSA was demoed through the Killer DAC and it sounded - well Killer.  I have been in contact with the community of guys with the Killer DAC in Perth and will be sending them my NAKSA to check it out on it for an in depth evaluation.  Watch this space.  The NAKSA could be the natural amp for this DAC.  These guys generally like valve stuff and Hugh reckons it has a valve like sound.  Personally I don't describe it like that - for me it was simply crystal clear with a light airy quality.  It didn't sound like either valve or transistor to me - it sounded like digital - without the digital nasties.  It actually leaves me scratching my head - nothing quite like it has hit my ears before.  I personally think it better than valve sound - but then again I have not listened to many valve amps and the few I had dripped with a bit of honey - which this thing has none of. 

Anyway may change my opinion when I have lived with it for a while.

Thanks
Bill 

[AKSA]

Bill,

Is that Carland, or Garland?  I know he lives at Wentworth Falls....  I think I may know of this guy and I'm told he has an extraordinary ear and is infinitely patient if it's the same guy.

I can't do anything else at this stage;  flat out building and developing amps at present, perhaps in a month or two. 

But thank you for the offer, appreciated.

Hugh

[bhobba]

Is that Carland, or Garland?  I know he lives at Wentworth Falls....  I think I may know of this guy and I'm told he has an extraordinary ear and is infinitely patient if it's the same guy. I can't do anything else at this stage;  flat out building and developing amps at present, perhaps in a month or two.

Steve Garland of Wentworth Hills.  And everything you hear about him is true - plus the most incredible technical knowledge of valve gear I have ever heard - it blew me away and being a bit of a techo type I am not easily impressed that way.  He impressed the hell out of me I can tell you that.  His DAC is simply amazing - other DAC's I have heard are fluid, liquid, musical, detailed etc etc etc - this is the first one I have heard that simply sounds REAL.  You must hear it to believe it.

The other DAC's I mentioned will be checked to see how close they get to the Killer.  I don't think they will equal the Killer - but if they can also get to actually sound REAL then that's good enough for me - and they are a lot cheaper.  But if not - sigh - its the Killer for me.

BTW he liked the NAKSA Hugh.

Thanks
Bill

[gaetan8888]

Hi Gaetan

Your technical details look correct.  What makes this DAC special is the incredible knowledge of its maker - Steven Garland.  I had the chance at the shootout to personally see that knowledge in action - very very impressive.

Personally I don't describe it like that - for me it was simply crystal clear with a light airy quality.  It didn't sound like either valve or transistor to me - it sounded like digital - without the digital nasties.

Thanks
Bill

Hello Bill

Naksa sounded like digital ?

You mean that it sound highly precise with lot of definition ?

The Naksa don't have the usual cross-over distortions and output trany switching noise, the ears are very sensitive and  those distortions and noises (even at very low level) can mask a parts of the music precisions, the life and the soundstage qualities. So I think it's a part of why the Naksa sound so good.

The Naksa are part of a very small number of amps who can so much delivers the life and guts of a good recording.

About the KillerDac, I've look at the KillerDac forum, there no address where to get pcb or a schematic.

Bye

Gaetan

[AKSA]

Bill,

I emailed Terry Demol, who is one of the most technically gifted people I know in Australia.  He was involved with the Killer Dac, knows Steve well.  The KDAC was a refinement and build out with very good parts of Scott Thompson's original NOS TDA 1541 DAC, made right here in Melbourne by a local identity I know, a Scientist, in fact, smart guy, member of the Melb audio club, also did a 300B SET.  The story is interesting, because Steve has done many things in this product which defy engineering notions (Hugh clapping manically from the stalls!!    ) and yet sound sublime.  (Perhaps we are singing in the same choir, could this be true??)

Gaetan,

I too was a bit taken aback by Bill's word 'digital' applied to the NAKSA sound, but I think you are right - hell, I hope so!!   

Cheers,

Hugh

[bhobba]

Naksa sounded like digital ? You mean that it sound highly precise with lot of definition ?

Precisely.  Its what a digital amp should sound like without the slight metalic sheen and glare they have.

The Naksa don't have the usual cross-over distortions and output trany switching noise, the ears are very sensitive and  those distortions and noises (even at very low level) can mask a parts of the music precisions, the life and the soundstage qualities. So I think it's a part of why the Naksa sound so good.  The Naksa are part of a very small number of amps who can so much delivers the life and guts of a good recording.

Yes

About the KillerDac, I've look at the KillerDac forum, there no address where to get pcb or a schematic.

Contact Steve if you want that.  He posts under Steven Valve.

Thanks
Bill

[bhobba]

I too was a bit taken aback by Bill's word 'digital' applied to the NAKSA sound, but I think you are right - hell, I hope so!!   

He is right, he is right.  This is how a digital amp should sound if it was done right - they are fast, accelerate quickly and are detailed but have a slight metallic sheen and glare I actually don't mind but of course you would rather it not have. It is the best description I could come up with - a digital amp done right.  In fact it sounds like no digital amp I have heard.  The trouble is it sounds not like valve or transistor to me either - it sounds better than them to me.  I spoke to Eric Hider today - he is the guy who makes the Tranquility DAC (it just arrived BTW - on my way to Mike's soon to check it out on his reference system) who has a lot more experience than me - he said it sounds like it's similar to a transparent SET.  If so he reckoned you have really done something Hugh - that is evidently, according to him anyway, a holy grail type of sound.  Not being really into valves so its not the type of thing I know about.

Thanks
Bill

[AKSA]

Hi Bill,

You know, the comment about 'transparent SET' was EXACTLY what I was trying to ahieve.

It also is vindication for my quest;  this amp contains new thinking, many threads have been brought together, and I have strong hopes it will eventually rank with the watershed JLH 1969 design.  It's been a long haul!   

I have always loved SETs, they are sublime, but they have no power, they distort too much on peaks, and they are very expensive because voltages are high, transformers are critical, and the best tubes are much sought after.  To achieve their sound with an order of magnitude more power was always a holy grail for me.  I'm tickled pink Eric Hider noted it - he is indeed experienced, this sort of comment does not come out of the blue, it's based on years of thinking around the problem.

You must tell Eric he needs one, Bill!!    


Cheers,


Hugh

[Terry Demol]

Bill,

I emailed Terry Demol, who is one of the most technically gifted people I know in Australia.  He was involved with the Killer Dac, knows Steve well.  The KDAC was a refinement and build out with very good parts of Scott Thompson's original NOS TDA 1541 DAC, made right here in Melbourne by a local identity I know, a Scientist, in fact, smart guy, member of the Melb audio club, also did a 300B SET.  The story is interesting, because Steve has done many things in this product which defy engineering notions (Hugh clapping manically from the stalls!!    ) and yet sound sublime.  (Perhaps we are singing in the same choir, could this be true??)

Gaetan,

I too was a bit taken aback by Bill's word 'digital' applied to the NAKSA sound, but I think you are right - hell, I hope so!!   

Cheers,

Hugh

Hi Hugh,

Thanks - I wish I was that damn smart.

WRT Killer DAC, spoke to Steve last night and sorted a few things out.
The latest version of this DAC is in fact based on a different PCB to Scotts.
I've been out of the loop for a while so to speak.

FWIW, the real homage should be paid to Thorsten Loesch and his Adagio DAC

http://www.fortunecity.com/rivendell/xentar/1179/projects/adagio/Adagio.html

cheers

Terry

[AKSA]

Ah, yes,

Thorsten, of Cyonara fame.....  an East German emigre now living in UK working for the National Health Scheme with a brain the size of the universe....  I remember this guy from Joenet days and I know his tube DAC design, absolutly stunning piece of work.

Thorsten is brilliant, erratic, caustic, helpful, disdainful, a virtual genius, I believe self-taught?

The other guy I loved was Fred Dieckmann, a Texan engineer, late of NatSemi, who was colorful beyond anything our own country can deliver...... and a man of great principle who took no prisoners but sought only the truth.  Never saw ego in Fred at all, but he was thrown off a well known forum, which was very disappointing.

Thanks Terry,

Hugh