Eastern Electric DAC mods

Bill O'Connell · « **Reply #40 on:** 28 Jul 2010, 03:30 am »

Quote from: John151 on 27 Jul 2010, 10:53 pm

Bill - I will bring the beer (or drinks of your choosing) if you let me listen in!

John,
Your always welcome to hang and listen. I'll let you know when the Bolder moddified EE DAC arrives, that goes for anybody else in the Chicagoland area(Arlington Heights)

Bill

Gopher · « **Reply #41 on:** 31 Jul 2010, 03:01 pm »

Wayne,

I know your mods are sill very much in development, but I'm curious if you have any rough estimates as to pricing of the various upgrade tiers you will offer. My digital rig is sounding fantastic as is, and I'm very happy with the work that you've done on my touch and psu, but I'm hesitant to throw in mods that exceed the cost of the platform.

I'm hoping there is something I can rationalize/afford in the works!

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #42 on:** 31 Jul 2010, 03:28 pm »

Quote from: Gopher on 31 Jul 2010, 03:01 pm

Wayne,

I know your mods are sill very much in development, but I'm curious if you have any rough estimates as to pricing of the various upgrade tiers you will offer. My digital rig is sounding fantastic as is, and I'm very happy with the work that you've done on my touch and psu, but I'm hesitant to throw in mods that exceed the cost of the platform.

I'm hoping there is something I can rationalize/afford in the works!

Ditto!

Bill O'Connell · « **Reply #43 on:** 31 Jul 2010, 03:54 pm »

Quote from: Bill@LakeGeorge on 27 Jul 2010, 10:55 pm

Bill, I'm sure you won't be disapointed, my EE dac with just the few mods Wayne did is absolutely fantastic, so much so I almost opted out of the power regulator and tube section upgrade.

Bill,
I'm certain the mods will take the DAC to places I've yet to hear. I know it is a tight squeeze inside, I'm just hoping everything fits. I needed to have just about all the inputs functioning just so others could hear if they don't use the same inputs as me otherwise I would have had Wayne just take out all the things that can possibly alter the signal.
In your case though the one input is enough. We did try to make it so the user has some options.

Later,
Bill

Wayne1 · « **Reply #44 on:** 31 Jul 2010, 04:53 pm »

Gopher,

Thank you for the question. That leads to a discussion I've been wanting to have for some time.

What IS the amount someone is willing to pay for mods? Is it based on how much the original product cost them? Or would it be based on the cost of a comparable sounding product?

If I modded an EE DAC for $1750.00 and it sounded better than a $5,000.00 DAC would you be interested? Or would the mods have to be limited to $500.00 or less?

The EE DAC was built to a price point and to fit in a certain case. There were compromises made to offer certain features that the designer was told to offer. Some of the compromises can be addressed by removing some of these features. Other aspects of the design need to have parts added or replaced. All of which takes time.

I am modding two of them with a cost-no-object approach. This is to wring out the best the DAC can give. The one area where most designers cut back on is power supply. To build a good power supply costs a LOT of money. The EE DACs supply is good but not great.

All of the mods I have done to Bill's DAC so far have not touched the power supply regulators. The current mods do elevate the DAC far above the stock unit. The cost for the mods to the output sections, and I/E section so far would be around $500.00.

Gopher · « **Reply #45 on:** 31 Jul 2010, 05:09 pm »

Wayne,

No, but I'll put it this way--I'd be far more willing to spend $2500 on an Minimax DAC SE with all of your upgrades, but sold through the distributor. The reason for this, is simply that irrespective of how good the finished product is, mods don't hold their value like equipment does. Especially to be an early adopter.

For me residual value matters, be it with respect to audio or vehicles. I have no idea what digital audio will be able to offer five years down the line and may need to call upon that money to help fund the next thing I need to do.

You've probably noticed that used audio equipment doesn't move on the forums or audiogon like it used to, so mods add another level of uncertainty to the mix. $500 is easy for me to gamble in this hobby and economy (at least it will be when my wife goes back to work!) but 3.5x that requires a little reflection.

This opinion may change completely if I have the opportunity to hear your price no object modded DAC, and after our PMs I'm pretty sure I'll be springing for at least your lower tier mods when funds permit.

Bill O'Connell · « **Reply #46 on:** 31 Jul 2010, 05:49 pm »

Fred,

You have been a great customer over the years

so to you I'll offer my DAC up after I have spent some time with it for you to evaluate and you can decide for yourself.

What I could do also is send a NIB DAC(sorry don't have any used ones laying around) to Wayne and let him do some upgrades and maybe he could make it available to folks who already have purchased a DAC to see if there is a substantial increase in having theirs done. From speaking with Wayne,I believe upon hearing they will send their units in. Hopefully this will promote my sales and also keep Wayne busy.

Would anybody be up for this option?

Bill

Kinger · « **Reply #47 on:** 31 Jul 2010, 06:18 pm »

So would this be like a tour of a modded EE DAC for already existing EE DAC customers? I think that would be cool.........

eclein · « **Reply #48 on:** 31 Jul 2010, 06:27 pm »

I heard an EE dac at the last NY Rave and it spun my head around and several of us mentioned "that sounds awesome" so if you guys decide to tour one or two, stock or modded?? Let me know, I'd love to hear one in my system if given a chance!!!!

Wayne1 · « **Reply #49 on:** 31 Jul 2010, 08:56 pm »

Quote from: Bill O'Connell on 31 Jul 2010, 05:49 pm

What I could do also is send a NIB DAC(sorry don't have any used ones laying around) to Wayne and let him do some upgrades and maybe he could make it available to folks who already have purchased a DAC to see if there is a substantial increase in having theirs done. From speaking with Wayne,I believe upon hearing they will send their units in. Hopefully this will promote my sales and also keep Wayne busy.

Would anybody be up for this option?

Bill

Bill,

That is a very generous offer. I'm very willing to do that.

I might even be able to finagle a reviewer to take a listen to both the stock and modded units.

NickS · « **Reply #50 on:** 31 Jul 2010, 09:05 pm »

Wayne,

Try to see this from the view of your prospective clients. Relative value is all well and good only if the relativity is understood clearly.

We wouldn’t be here if we all didn’t desire to improve the quality of our system’s sound. As early adopters of the EE DAC, not one of us has expressed any unhappiness or discontent with the stock unit. On the contrary, our small coterie appears to be extremely pleased with their purchase and its positive impact on sound quality.

Now enters the opportunity for improvement… a slippery slope this. The question in our minds is exactly how can improvements be quantified or qualified? While we seem to possess some sense for what sounds good and what sounds better, most of us aren’t familiar with Paul Hynes nor are we prepared to assess improvements from his epicurean regulators. Neither do we completely comprehend the specific nature of your work to improve upon the stock design or the results that could be expected from it in order to establish a value for the price we would be paying.

There are two solutions for this problem. The first is to specify, by tier, the upgrades that you propose to offer for the EE DAC along with associated costs and expected benefits. The second is to honor Bill O’Connell’s enlightened suggestion to put a modded unit on tour for present users so they have a chance to compare the performance of mods to stock in their own systems.

I’m betting that everyone who hears the modified units will prefer them to therir stock units and, without hesitation, purchase the appropriate level of your upgrade schedule that is right for them.

Gopher · « **Reply #51 on:** 31 Jul 2010, 10:42 pm »

Bill,

That would be amazing! I greatly appreciate the offer. take your time though as i wont be in the market for five weeks when the wife goea back to work and we return to being a dual income family.

The customer tour idea is q great one as well. I think that will drum up interest for sure.

Bill O'Connell · « **Reply #52 on:** 1 Aug 2010, 04:46 am »

Quote from: Wayne1 on 31 Jul 2010, 08:56 pm

Bill,

That is a very generous offer. I'm very willing to do that.

I might even be able to finagle a reviewer to take a listen to both the stock and modded units.

Wayne,
I'll run into the office tomorrow and pack one up for you and it will ship out on Monday.
This seems like it would be the most practical way to let those who might be teetering on having the DAC modded to judge for themselves. My only concern is the levels of the modification. If I send one unit which mods would be performed?The tube stage mod, the changing of op-amps, the removal of an input or two, removing the volume pot. I will let Wayne decide how he would like to do this and what level and price range. If I could afford to send out 3 units I would ,and let there be different levels of modifications, but I can't.I have another shipment waiting for me to send the balance on as they are already built and ready to ship.

I have a few units out already to be reviewed by the professionals but they just received them this week so they will be forthcoming shortly as they were new so they will have to burn them in a while,evaluate, and then put their words to pen,so the process takes a while,but Wayne if you would like your modded version along with the stock version reviewed then by all means let them go right ahead.We're very proud of what the stock version does and is,and for the money, may be one of the best buys in audio. Consider my opinion biased though!

Later,
Bill

JLM · « **Reply #53 on:** 12 Aug 2010, 12:11 pm »

My vote would be to keep the volume control and at least a couple of the inputs so that this DAC can eliminate the need for a pre-amp (and help justify the cost of an all out mod).

Ideally a three way comparison between stock, bang-for-the-buck mod, and all out mod would be made.

Can the power supply mods be put in a separate cabinet and not require modding of the DAC itself? This would help with resale, save shipping costs/hazards, and allow customers to use the DAC while the power supply is being built/shipped.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #54 on:** 13 Aug 2010, 12:40 am »

Alex did a great job incorporating a lot of features in a very small space. There really isn't a lot of room inside for some of the mods that might improve certain areas.

You really don't want to have the power supply external in this design of DAC. The power supply regulators should be very close to the chip for the DAC. The power supply for the tube circuit and the op-amps could be external, but then you would need a case, transformers, regulators and connecting cable. There is not enough room on the back panel for another power connector. Not to mention that it would at least triple the price of the mods.

For quite some time I have been only listening to the modded unit. I pulled it out of the system to try to figure out how to mount the PH regulators a couple of weeks ago. I put in one of the stock units and just let it play to break-in. I have never done a direct comparison of stock to modded unit. I kept in my mind what areas of the sound the mods improved as I completed them.

Today I finally compared a stock unit to the almost completely modded DAC. I installed the PH regulators that supply the voltages to the DAC chip. There are more mods to go, but...

OMG. The regulators make a difference, no question. What is even more apparent is the improvement that the mods to the tube section make. The lower mids just have so much more weight and depth. Dynamics all over the place. High frequency subtleties galore.

In a PM to an EE DAC owner I was bragging a bit on improvement the mods bring to the sound of the unit. I told him the the stock unit mumbles while the modded unit sings. If anything, I understated the difference.

I will be starting work on the DAC that Bill sent me for the tour early next week. I think we need to get a list going of who gets to listen to the modded unit.

The tour will be restricted to current owners of a stock EE DAC. Please post here and send me a PM or E-mail. I will try to schedule the tour so shipping costs are minimal. I will pay to send it out to the first person. Each person will then pay to ship it to the next. I do suggest FedEx Ground.

Try to keep each audition to a week or less. Notify me when you receive the unit. I will let you know then who to ship it to next.

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #55 on:** 13 Aug 2010, 12:47 am »

Put me on the list. I am surely interested in what the mods do to the stock sound.

Gopher · « **Reply #56 on:** 13 Aug 2010, 12:56 am »

Ditto! I'd love to join the tour too.

Audioclyde · « **Reply #57 on:** 13 Aug 2010, 01:05 am »

I've only had the stock EE DAC for 24 hours now, but I'd love to be on the tour also!

I'm pretty impressed already, and its not even close to being burned in!

Wayne, you have my info (Randy Shorb, Tulsa, OK) for the mac mini pwr supply tour, but let me know if I need to send it again for this tour.

NickS · « **Reply #58 on:** 13 Aug 2010, 02:13 am »

Wayne,

Kindly include me on the list for the tour of your modded EE DAC.

Improvement to the stock unit would be most impressive to hear in my system.

Kinger · « **Reply #59 on:** 13 Aug 2010, 02:29 am »

Part of me wants to join the tour and the other part of me is scared to as I don't need to be spending more money