[Jim N.]

By some of your posts, progressive rock is anything that any one did. You might as well call the Mamas and Papas progressive rock, they were doing shit that no one else was, so was Dillon. How about the god damn Beatles?

Now if you asked a baby boomer what prog rock was, they would probably answer Yes, or Pink Floyd or Genesis....someone like that. But if you call Tool a band in the same catagory, not even close. For me Tool sucks so incredibly bad, they aren't even in the same league. Can you scream any louder or hit the drums any harder (with out busting the heads?) so, the term is very age specific.

To me, the term prog rock actually came from "art rock". These were bands that did LPs with a story. The listener was expected to listen to the entire LP, front to back in one sitting, to understand the story. Genesis, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, is a perfect example of this. It's a rock opera. So is Tommy the Who, and Queen, A Night at the Opera.

Wayner

The biggest problem with prog is the definition itself. Many of the older fans associate it with rock that has pseudo classical elements or odd time signatures / changes. I use a looser definition, rock that is creatively written and performed featuring superlative musicianship. I really just call it chops music so that it also covers fusion.

Art rock kind of works but how many lucid stories are there on any classic Yes album? ELP? Genesis would come up with "Supper's Ready" which is really just a bunch of Gabriel word play. Sure the "Fountain of Salmacis" has a story but then you get "Attack of the Giant Hogweed" or "I Know What I Like In Your Wardrobe". Even "The Lamb" is abstract and not what anyone would call a linear story. Maybe we should call it performance rock....

King Crimson is a prog band that sounded radically different in each of its first three eras. Did they cease being prog?

Can you really compare Yes' "Tales of Topographic Oceans" with "90125". Which is prog?

The vintage prog bands changed their sound. Did they cease being prog bands?

Tool is but a 1990's version of "21st Century Schizoid Man". The band has great chops and plays some very intricate music. Yeah, it's loud. Yea, Maynard James Keenan can be a bit difficult for some of us oldsters to appreciate but I really love the band and would put it into the prog category. This is coming from someone who saw Yes at the Whiskey A Go Go (club in LA) just before they released Fragile, Pink Floyd at the Santa Monica Civic (mid size arena) and many of the prog bands of the late 60's early 70's in their prime.

Both eras Marillion (Fish and Hogarth) are prog to me.

Anyway, to me "prog" is a big tent to me that encompasses bands that are primarily rock who experiment, work out of the mainstream and can really play their instruments. Musicianship and composition are the keys, not whether or not there are mellotrons (though they sure don't hurt).

But that's just me.

The Beatles? "Tomorrow Never Knows", "A Day in the Life", "I Am the Walrus", "Strawberry Fields" seem prog to me.

[werd]

wikipedia's breakdown of it is the best imo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock

[werd]

And here is the most pathetic version of it. Mind you Tool is included so maybe not 

http://www.conservapedia.com/Progressive_rock

[JoshK]

And here is the most pathetic version of it. Mind you Tool is included so maybe not 

http://www.conservapedia.com/Progressive_rock

Tool was included in the article you first linked too.  They weren't named as being "prog" but having prog influences.  I think this is consistent with what the band claims or lacks to claim.  They never started out as a "prog" band but people threw that name on them. 

Tool does take many stylistic approaches that prog adopted and I think that is why many call them prog, although I am not sure I would. 

[werd]

Tool was included in the article you first linked too.  They weren't named as being "prog" but having prog influences.  I think this is consistent with what the band claims or lacks to claim.  They never started out as a "prog" band but people threw that name on them. 

Tool does take many stylistic approaches that prog adopted and I think that is why many call them prog, although I am not sure I would.

I think they have enough time sigs that aren't 4/4 to make it hard not to be anything else imo

[simoon]

Anyway, to me "prog" is a big tent to me that encompasses bands that are primarily rock who experiment, work out of the mainstream and can really play their instruments. Musicianship and composition are the keys, not whether or not there are mellotrons (though they sure don't hurt).

That's actually  pretty good description.

Progressive rock is not a 'sound' or a 'style' of music in the same way that Country is. A country song is instantly identifiable as a Country song due to it's 'style'.

But progressive music (I don't even like to use the term 'progressive rock', since it has gone in so many diverse directions, some of them are not rock at all) is not instantly identifiable. Even from the 1st Golden Age, the 70's, Yes sounds nothing like National Health which sounds nothing like Henry Cow which sounds nothing like Brand X...

What makes them all progressive is: pushing boundaries, complexity, compositional sophistication, CHOPS.

If 'Progressive Rock' is a style to a person (if they're expecting Hammond, Mellotron, Hacketesque guitar, etc) then many modern bands are not Progressive (upper case 'P'). But if you're hungry for bands that can play, write complex and sophisticated compositions, able to convey emotion in their compositions, etc, then for the open minded, there are PLENTY of progressive music (lower case 'p') ensembles that are just as rewarding to discover as the original 70's bands.

Although, there are enough modern Progressive bands that play in the classic style for the person looking for it.

Edit: and no, the Mamas and the Pappas or Dillon are not progressive despite the fact that they might have been doing something new. Although my contention is that they were NOT doing anything new. They were still writing 3 chord songs, in 4/4, with standard verse - chorus structure.

[drphoto]

Couldn't a  description of  'progressive' mean that the song moves along from one place to another, hence a progression? In other words, eschewing more traditional pop and/or rock song structures?

A concept album, only builds on this point.

[Wayner]

I like drphoto's "concept album" idea. Perhaps that is a better description. There are lots of copycat bands out there and if a band decides to go where no band has gone before, I'd call that progressive thinking anyway.

Wayner 

[JakeJ]

By some of your posts, progressive rock is anything that any one did. You might as well call the Mamas and Papas progressive rock, they were doing shit that no one else was, so was Dillon. How about the god damn Beatles?

Now if you asked a baby boomer what prog rock was, they would probably answer Yes, or Pink Floyd or Genesis....someone like that. But if you call Tool a band in the same catagory, not even close. For me Tool sucks so incredibly bad, they aren't even in the same league. Can you scream any louder or hit the drums any harder (with out busting the heads?) so, the term is very age specific.

To me, the term prog rock actually came from "art rock". These were bands that did LPs with a story. The listener was expected to listen to the entire LP, front to back in one sitting, to understand the story. Genesis, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, is a perfect example of this. It's a rock opera. So is Tommy the Who, and Queen, A Night at the Opera.

Wayner

All I can say to this is, pardon me all to hell.  I am 53, consider myself a late boomer and love Tool, although I always considered them a metal/alternative cross.  I suppose that, to some degree, it's in the ear of the beholder.

I make it a point to try new music whenever possible and have come to like much of the subsequent generation's music.  There are a few types of music I haven't been able to appreciate such as, opera, rap, modern country & western, and some pop.  So I am flawed but I am OK with my flaws.

[BobM]

What is normally considered "Progressive Rock" has so many sub-genre's now that it isn't more than a very broad category. Like calling something "classical music"; is it a symphony, a string quartet, an opera, a piano concerto, etc?

Yes, I believe anything that pushes the mainstream within its own category is "progressive" but not all "progressive rock" is progressive. Clearly much of it is derivative. It's just an old name for a style of music that is different from classic rock or mainstream rock or rock-pop.

Like Louis said about jazz, if you have to ask you don't know.

[simoon]

Yes, I believe anything that pushes the mainstream within its own category is "progressive" but not all "progressive rock" is progressive. Clearly much of it is derivative. It's just an old name for a style of music that is different from classic rock or mainstream rock or rock-pop.

That's the exact reason why some people (me included) like to differentiate between upper case 'P' Progressive Rock, to denote the style of bands that sound like the classic bands of the 70's (Yes, Genesis, etc.) And lower case 'p' progressive music for bands that are stretching the boundaries of music.

Take Cynic as an example. They do not sound very much like any of the classic Progressive Rock bands, but one listen to their extremely complex, emotional, long form music played with amazing musicianship, and I think very few people would disagree that they are a progressive band.

[Ronm1]

While I don't believe they have been mentioned.  One of my fav's that IMHO may have started this whole genre was Procol Harum

[vinyl_guy]

Maybe I missed them going thorugh this thread, but I would add Muse and Stars to the list of current prog rock bands in the Yes, ELP, Genesis, King Crimson style.

One of my favorite prog rock bands from the late 60's that has not been listed is Ford Theatre. They only cut two albums, but their debut, Trilogy for the Masses is a great prog/psychedelic rock album.



I first heard the album in college on one of the early FM radio stations. They played the album without interruption and I was hooked--bought it the next day and it remains in heavy rotation.

[vinyl_guy]

While I don't believe they have been mentioned.  One of my fav's that IMHO may have started this whole genre was Procol Harum

 

[hndaaudio]

    *

Is Prog Rock Dead?
« on: 23 Apr 2010, 09:49 PM »

A friend has lent me his Genesis 1970-75 box and this music is GREAT!  It leaves me thinking that prog rock hasn't progressed at all in the last 35 years.  From what I've listened to it has actually regressed from this time period.  Who am I missing?   

Agreed ! Imo the creativity was pretty much gone by 1980,since then just a pale imitation of what has gone before.

Here is my list of great stuff you might be missing:


Genesis: I addition to the box set you mentioned,they were still great up to "And then there were three".

ELP: Same,Tarkus,Trilogy,BSS,Welcome Back

Pink Floyd: Meddle,Dark side,Wish you were here,Animals

Yes: Yes album,Close to the edge,Yessongs,Relayer,Going for the one

King Crimson: In the court,In the wake

Van Der Graff Generator: Pawn Hearts

Camel: Mirage,Snow goose,Moonmadness,A live record

Focus: Moving Waves,3,Live at the rainbow,Hamburger concerto

Maxophone: Same (I think the english language version is better)

Arti & Mestieri: Tilt,Giro di valzer,First live in japan

Perigeo: Non e poi cosi lontano

Pfm: cook

Rdm: La bibbia,Contamination

Metamorfosi: Inferno

Ethos: Ardour,Open up

Happy the man: Same,Live

Utopia: Utopia (1974),Ra

Triumvirat: Illusions on a double dimple,Spartacus

Nektar: More live in new york

Zappa does not really fit in the genre,but he has at least a few releases that are must listens:
Overnight sensation,One size fits all,Bongo fury.


Hope you find a lot of great stuff here !

[simoon]

    *

Is Prog Rock Dead?
« on: 23 Apr 2010, 09:49 PM »

A friend has lent me his Genesis 1970-75 box and this music is GREAT!  It leaves me thinking that prog rock hasn't progressed at all in the last 35 years.  From what I've listened to it has actually regressed from this time period.  Who am I missing?

You're missing A LOT!

I posted just a small number of new progressive music bands earlier in the thread that are doing new and interesting stuff.

Here's the short list again;

Deus Ex Machina, Gordian Knot, After Crying, Riverside, Anglagard, Thinking Plague, Underground Railroad, Present, DFA, Pain of Salvation, Indukti, Forgas Band Phenomena, Isuldar's Bane, Miriodor, Hamadryad, Octafish, Present, Cynic, Spiral Architect, Half Past Four, Panzerpappa, Diablo Swing Orchestra...

I could really fill up pages with the interesting modern progressive bands.

Since about 1992 (Anglagard's 1st release) there has been an ongoing '2nd Golden Age' of progressive music form all parts of the planet!

Agreed ! Imo the creativity was pretty much gone by 1980,since then just a pale imitation of what has gone before

Then you are sadly uninformed, and even more sadly missing so much great music.

Here is my list of great stuff you might be missing:

I'm glad you mention some of the more obscure progressive 70's bands in your list; Van Der Graff Generator, Maxophone, Arti & Mestieri (one of the best drummers ever! I saw them play at BajaProg festival in 2005 & they kicked major ass!), Perigeo, Pfm, Rdm, Metamorfosi, Ethos, Happy the Man.

[JakeJ]

You're missing A LOT!

I posted just a small number of new progressive music bands earlier in the thread that are doing new and interesting stuff.

Here's the short list again;

Deus Ex Machina, Gordian Knot, After Crying, Riverside, Anglagard, Thinking Plague, Underground Railroad, Present, DFA, Pain of Salvation, Indukti, Forgas Band Phenomena, Isuldar's Bane, Miriodor, Hamadryad, Octafish, Present, Cynic, Spiral Architect, Half Past Four, Panzerpappa, Diablo Swing Orchestra...

I could really fill up pages with the interesting modern progressive bands.

Since about 1992 (Anglagard's 1st release) there has been an ongoing '2nd Golden Age' of progressive music form all parts of the planet!

Then you are sadly uninformed, and even more sadly missing so much great music.

I'm glad you mention some of the more obscure progressive 70's bands in your list; Van Der Graff Generator, Maxophone, Arti & Mestieri (one of the best drummers ever! I saw them play at BajaProg festival in 2005 & they kicked major ass!), Perigeo, Pfm, Rdm, Metamorfosi, Ethos, Happy the Man.

+1 

Awww, c'mon simoon, g'head and post pages of bands.  I want to know what's out of print so I can find it in the used record stores. 

[art]

While I don't believe they have been mentioned.  One of my fav's that IMHO may have started this whole genre was Procol Harum

I would have to second that. When WSOP came out, everyone I knew instantly hated it.

A few years later, FZ explained it perfectly when he said "We are the other people; you're the other people, too. Found a way to get to you."

I was vindicated!

Or maybe it was the ending line from Clockwork Orange that pertained:

"I was cured."

Pat

[hndaaudio]

Hi Simoon,

I think you would agree with me there is no accounting for taste.I have bought the releases or listened to many of the bands you mentioned and many you have not mentioned as I am always open to discover great prog.I wanted to like all of them and would rate the best of them as good but I have heard nothing that is on the same level as the old stuff.

The point of my list is to turn fans of older prog on to great music they might never know about.I have plowed through most of this stuff and enjoy letting others know about it.

I would have liked to have been at the progfest when artie & mestieri played,a rare chance to see one of all time greats ! I was lucky enough to see Ethos when they were touring for the first album,also Pink Floyd play the entire Dark Side album and some of the Meddle stuff in 75
and The Wall in 79,both stunning shows.Also Camel in 78 and ELP playing The Works album.

Anyway,good on you to be able to appreciate the newer stuff,I will have to give it another chance by listening to some of the names on your list that are new to me.

A couple more noteworthy albums:

Peter Gabriel: Same.Great first solo album.

Jan Ackkerman: 10,000 clowns on a rainy day.Fantastic live recording,very clear and dynamic
                      with Jan playing many of the Focus classics,a treat to hear in state of the
                      art sound.

[JoshK]

If the definition of prog was telling a story in an album where you were suppose to listen to it from start to finish then a lot of other bands I know, that I don't associate with prog could be added to the list.  Nine Inch Nails for example.

I don't like all the newer prog stuff out there.  I am picky as a lot of it sounds more like musicians jerking off then music. Some of ELP's stuff is in the same category for me.

Of the newer "prog", some mentioned that I like are:

Muse (if you can call them prog)
Porcupine Tree (easily my favorite in this category)
Aghora - Formless (this one is pretty good).
Riverside is fairly decent, although I don't love them.

I could never really get into Pain of Salvation (earlier ones).