[rblnr]

I'll second the Ascendo C-8s and Gallo 3.5s.  If you're willing to spend less, I'd find a pair of VMPS RM30s to audition.  They embarrass a lot of more expensive stuff.

[poseidonsvoice]

Of all the ones mentioned, this one was the only one that made me turn:




Top drivers. External crossover. Look like the Wilmslow Audio Prestige.

Anand.

[James Romeyn]

Quite possibly the ugliest speakers I have ever seen.  If these have WAF, I'd think twice about the W.
 
Steve

Steve
Cruel, but true.  Yes, the GMA Eos are incredibly homely.

[firedog]

The Devore Gibbon Nines would meet all your criteria. Great sounding speakers

[hometheaterdoc]

George,

you mention that the buyer wants to do both music and home theater with these speakers.  does that mean that the speaker has to have a tonally matching center channel or is the buyer expecting to do 2 channel home theater (or 2.1 or 2.2, etc.?)  Does the home theater not matter as much so as long as the two channel is good, he'll use whatever he has for center and surrounds for home theater and call it a day? 

Choices could be dramatically altered depending on whether or not he needs to have a matching center and surrounds.  How much budget for center, if so?  Does it have to fit in the same price range?  So 3 speakers for the 5-12K budget? 5 speakers for the budget?

What kind of coloring is in the room now where the speakers will be housed?  What kind of coloring is absolutely off limits?  My better half likes small and actually likes grill cloth instead of wood veneer.  She hates light woods and if she has to have wood veneer likes dark red cherry, rosewood, walnut, etc.  She absolutely despises gloss black anything (thus she hates the Usher speakers because of their gloss black front baffles, but actually really likes the rosewood Harbeth Monitor 40.1s I have here even though the Harbeths are more bulky and don't have the same nice lines.  I think it's almost mandatory that if you are going to own Harbeth, it should be in rosewood because it's just gorgeous... but that's me and my taste.  Others are very different).  I understand the desire to limit details about sonic attributes the guys likes and dislikes and sticking to just a full range option.  But if these speakers have to have high WAF, can you tell us more about what would and would not work?  Half the choices in this thread or more might immediately be eliminated based on her requirements...

[Jon L]

One speaker brand that's sort of under the radar and has impressed me greatly is Amphion. 

Keep an eye out for a great used pair around your price..

http://www.amphion.fi/

[BobM]

There's a lot of good suggestions made so far, but each one, although fine speakers, are not perfect. OK, so what is. Maggie 20.1's are wonderful, but don't sound anything like Revel Studio's or Avante Garde's. I think in order to make a suggestion in a way that makes sense we need to know more about a listener's preference.

So, do you like panel/electrostat sound (Magnapan, Martin Logan)?
Do you want something with a more punchy presentation (i.e. cones or horns)?
Do you want something that gives you a live experience (horns) or a little more laid back (soft dome tweeters)?
Is it all about the midrange (Lowthers) or do you want full extension at both ends?

About 15 years ago I would say you were looking at many near-cutting edge speakers at that price range, but these days $8-12K almost seems like middle of the road if you're buying new (doesn't that just suck), but good used deals abound there.

[KeithR]

depends on what he likes---if he likes more traditional audiophile speakers (extreme detail, air, etc.), i would look to used Wilson Sophia IIs---they are driven quite well on 50 watts.

if he doesn't want that audiophile sound and wants more of a musical sound, i would recommend Zu Definition2 (60 day demo) or Devore Fidelity Orangutan which is coming out...or Silverbacks if he can find a pair used.

i replaced a pair of Dynaudio C1s with Zu Definition 2s recently.  i don't care for the other Zu speakers fyi.

Cheers,

KeithR

[sporter]

I also own the Zu Definition 2's, and very happy.  I would recommend these to anyone.  Try them out if you can.

[catastrofe]

Darth mentioned the Von Schweikert VR-33 but you can also buy the VR4 SR MKIII for under $12K, even with the piano black finish.  VSA is selling direct at 35% off their SRP.

[Levi]

Of all the ones mentioned, this one was the only one that made me turn:




Top drivers. External crossover. Look like the Wilmslow Audio Prestige.

Anand.

I guess this all boils down to personal taste and most importantly the room.  Equipment synergy is also important.  Having said that, for a moderate size room and highly resolving system...ATC, Proac and PMC makes good sound.  Definitely PMC makes a matching center channel for all their speaker line which is a candidate for a good HT and stereo setup.  Their higher-end models goes way below 30Hz in low volume levels that is for sure. 

Definitely, you don't want to skimp on a matching center channel speakers.  Put aside an additional $3K for that. 

[KeithR]

Darth mentioned the Von Schweikert VR-33 but you can also buy the VR4 SR MKIII for under $12K, even with the piano black finish.  VSA is selling direct at 35% off their SRP.

VSA pulled a fast one on this guys---when they went more direct they marked up their old speakers by 35% and now suddenly give you a 35% "discount"

yet another reason i don't like that company.

[mr_bill]

Hi Keith,
How do you like the Zus compared to the C1.  The Dynaudio monitor is a good un'

[catastrofe]

VSA pulled a fast one on this guys---when they went more direct they marked up their old speakers by 35% and now suddenly give you a 35% "discount"

yet another reason i don't like that company.

So if the discount puts them back in line with their "original" pricing, is it reasonable to expect an even greater discount?

[hometheaterdoc]

I don't want to speak for VSA here... but the above is not entirely true...  how a manufacturer chooses to price their products to dealers and how they set their MSRP is a choice they make based on sales volume, actual cost of the speaker, desired profit, and necessary profit to pay for facilities, employees, taxes, health insurance premiums, and any other overhead costs. 

There was some price restructuring a while back when the "Retail Line" (VR-1, VR-2, VR-4jr, LCR-15, VR-S/1) was still available and VSA worked out a deal with one vendor to help move some product to get inventory levels back in line and resolve some things with their overseas vendor.  In that instance the MSRP pricing of those models was raised.  But as far as I remember, the price structure for those pre-assembled speakers didn't appreciably change quite as much to go along with it.  It definitely went up and it was therefore not feasible to keep the same MSRP pricing and the dealer margin was definitely going to get squeezed.  So I think they were trying a new idea.  Raise dealer pricing some to keep from losing money on the line, raise MSRP a higher percentage than dealer and allow discounting.  Customer feels they get a deal by getting a sizable discount off MSRP, dealer can still make more than 3% profit margin because they're not getting squeezed in both directions.  That's why the online discounting occurred on those models where you could get 35% off.  But those products are no longer manufactured.  To the best of my knowledge (which is limited, admittedly), that's not going on with current product.  If you can buy current VSA products like the VR-4SR MKIII and VR-5 Anniversary direct from the factory for 35% off MSRP, go for it.  That's a great deal. 

Current MSRP and dealer pricing is based off current manufacturing costs and whatever margins Albert feels necessary to keep the business viable, the doors open, and his employees gainfully employed.

I can tell you that a large chunk of the price increase for VR-4SR MKIII and VR-5 Anniversary speakers from their initial introduction (VR-4SR MKI and VR-5SE) to the market a few years back has to do with the cabinets are now made stateside instead of getting the raw cabinets made in China.  That's not an insignificant cost difference, believe me.  There is no way they could offer the speaker for those same old MSRP prices.  I can't speak to other models because I'm not intimately involved anymore. 

The VR-33 is a factory direct only model.  No USA VSA dealers are selling it.  That's why they are able to make the cabinets here in the USA, put the quality of drivers in them, have everything hand assembled one at a time in California, sell them at a reasonable price, and have it be a profitable product for them.  At least, I assume it's a profitable product for them.....

[doug s.]

another speaker worth considering, imo.  (having heard their less expensive offerings.):

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1276891587&/ProAc-D80-Cherry-


doug s.

[boead]

http://www.nolaspeakers.com/

[KeithR]

Hi Keith,
How do you like the Zus compared to the C1.  The Dynaudio monitor is a good un'

The Dynaudio is VERY good monitor--in fact, the best one I've owned or heard up to 10k.  (i want to hear the Mini2s, but can't afford them anyways)

The Zus may give up a hair of air to the Dyns Esotar2 tweeter---but that is about it.  The top end is more similar than different.  I prefer the sealed/active bass, midrange to me is much more involving (vocals are amazing), and the soundstage/size of image is tremendous.  Dynamics are also pretty different then anything i've had in my room. 

My search led me to a decision between Magico V3s (the best traditional speaker I've ever heard, but at 27k it just was too costly) and Zus.  I auditioned Dyn Sapphires and C4s and didn't care for either---the Sapphires were nice, but not enough bass.  The C4 is darker sounding than the C1 and does not look good at all (terrible SAF).  I also considered Revels, B&Ws, etc....but in the end I wanted amplifier flexibility on my next speaker and none of those speakers have that.  Devore was the other speaker I was interested (Nines), but not enough bass for my room.  I also was concerned they may be too polite for me---the Zus definitely rock but in a warmer fashion. 

and with Zu i'm able to bring in a Shindo amp, like what is coming to the listening room very soon    20 watts of Class A magic coming my way!

Keith

[mr_bill]

Thank you Keith, that was a great post and I appreciate your experiences.

[eclein]

REVEL, anybody mention them?? or are they more than 12K?? As always a little bit late to the party...