[95Dyna]

I just placed an order for a new VPI Classic with Benz Micro Wood SL.  With my existing circa 1975 Thorens TD 160 and Signet cartridge I am using the Bryston BP26P preamp with internal MM phono section.  My plan is to send the BP26P back to Bryston to be converted to the BP26MC which requires the installation of the step up transformers and a new faceplate.  When completed the conversion will provide the same phono stage as Bryston's external BP 1.5 sans user changeable gain settings.  The factory setting is 57.5 db which is almost exactly the optimal gain requirement for the .4 mV output of the Benz Wood SL.  Now I have been given pause by what I have been reading on the Circle about the Ray Samuels F-117 Nighthawk.  The two alternatives are in the same range costwise.  I have some time to ponder this since the VPI Classic is in a slight backorder situation.  Since it was participants on the Vinyl and Bryston circles that helped me tremendously with the TT/cart. decision any thoughts here would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Bill

[tomjtx]

A few thoughts:

Hawk has a 30 day return

Intro price is 650 until end of April. May 1st it goes to about 795.00

Even if you keep the Hawk past 30 days you could likely sell it after May 1 and break even. Ray's gear goes fast on head-fi.

I got mine 2 days after PayPalling. Ordered on a Mon. got it Wed.

You can enjoy it while waiting for the VPI. 

The Hawk is so adjustable that it will fit any cartridge out there. All you have to do is turn the knobs. Sounds like the Bryston wont be adjustable ?

Check out shaizada's review.

For me, the Hawk is one of the best audio purchases I've made.

[fld]

the ear 834p should be on your shortlist.

[toobluvr]

Do NOT ignore the Vista Audio phono section.     It is working better for me on HO cartridges than the Nighthawk (I own both).  Don't let the rock bottom price fool ya.  This thing is a serious overachiever.

I know...I know.   Given all the really positive buzz around the NH (and well deserved, too!) it's a shock to me too.      
But I've been comparing them for two weeks now with Dyna 20X-H and Clearaudio Virtuoso Wood cartridges,  and that's my assessment with my ears in my system.  Your results may differ.

My Vista is fixed for MM carts, so I have no idea how they compare with lower output carts.  I can say I tried the NH in my buddy's "to die for" champagne budget system with LOMC and it was exceptionally good!   

[rollo]

  Do not forget "Vista" phonostage. Consider the Benz Lukaschek PP-1 as well since you are using a Benz cart. Excellent synergy. Have fun trying .


charles

[toobluvr]

  Do not forget "Vista" phonostage.

Didn't I just say that?   

   Just jokin with ya!

[toobluvr]

Not to throw another monkey wrench in the works for ya Bill, but here's something else to ponder.....

Instead of the Benz did you consider a Dynavector?  I hear they are excellent synergy with VPI.   If you poke around you will see that Dyna and VPI are commonly paired on package deals from dealers.  Usually a sure sign of synergy.

I think there is even a special version Dyna 20X-H designed specifically to go with VPI packages.   Its 1 mV output (compared to normal 2 mV) is designed to combine the richness of HO and the speed / detail of LO.

My own experience with both brands is that I prefer the Dynavector.   I owned an older wood bodied Benz at your price point, the H2.0. I think it was the forerunner (and different output) to the one you have ordered.    I also owned the Dyna 20X-H alongside it.  I much preferred the 20X-H and sold the Benz.   Bear in mind that this was an older Benz.....possibly by 2 generations?  I don't know if / how the newer ones are different / better.

I like the 20X so much that I just recently tried an older Dyna 17D2mk2.  The 17D2 is leaner on the bottom and lacking the flow and musicality of the 20X.  I also find its tonal balance too treble-tipped for my tastes.  I prefer the richer and more slammin' and fun 20X!  Cheaper too.  I think the 20X offers huge performance at it's price.

Choosing the 20X over the Benz would save about $700.  Something to consider.  And I hear the cheaper Dyna 10x has even greater midrange magic than the 20X, but some give-ups elsewhere.   No direct experience with it, just another option.

[TheChairGuy]

That's a good recommendation by toobluvr/John on cartridges 

VPI is a longtime Dynavector (and Grado) dealer...it stands to reason that Harry uses these brands in his evaluation of his decks.

That doesn't necessarily mean other brands won't sound just fine - but some of the work that goes into 'sychronicity' has already been done for you using these two cartridge brands and VPI's.

Regarding phono stages - I've long been a proponent of the short path and least resistance in the audio chain.  Adding an outboard phono stage adds additional lengths of interconnects and rca junctions to (potentially) muck up sound and introduce RF into the fray

Vinyl, and really digital too, is generally best enjoyed with as few connections as possible - all else equal.  Dual mono throughout the system is a boon, too (for imaging and a sense of greater realism)

However, the proliferation of attractively priced dual mono, battery powered phono amps out there may overcome my built-in belief that shorter is always better.  I'm thrilled with my (fully dual mono - right back to dual trannies) Pioneer SX-A9-J receiver (used as tuner & full function preamp) for MM use...but the MC section is not the same high calibre.

This is a long way of saying....I'm thinking about the Ray Samuels phono stage, too, despite my longheld biases about outboard phono stage. 

Dual mono, battery powered (low noise floor is sooo important to boosting eeny-weeny cartridge voltages) and adjustability at quite reasonable pricing goes a long way in my book 

John

[toobluvr]

Hi John....

Logic and theory say that battery power will yield less grunge, quieter operation and lower noise floor.   But in actual listening in my system, I don't hear that advantage when comparing these two units.  Not at all. 

Nor am I hearing any sonic benefits of the dual mono design.  Theory is great, but at end of the day, the ears are an excellent evaluator of talent, and will usually lead you to the right decision.

I am however getting superior bass presentation and greater dynamics, weight and slam with the non-battery unit.  This is an often cited criticism of battery powered units.

You can read between the lines and figure out which unit I prefer.  At least for now...the evaluation is ongoing.  These observations are with HO cartridges only.  I can't compare them with LO.

[95Dyna]

Hi John....

Logic and theory say that battery power will yield less grunge, quieter operation and lower noise floor.   But in actual listening in my system, I don't hear that advantage when comparing these two units.  Not at all. 

Nor am I hearing any sonic benefits of the dual mono design.  Theory is great, but at end of the day, the ears are an excellent evaluator of talent, and will usually lead you to the right decision.

I am however getting superior bass presentation and greater dynamics, weight and slam with the non-battery unit.  This is an often cited criticism of battery powered units.

You can read between the lines and figure out which unit I prefer.  At least for now...the evaluation is ongoing.  These observations are with HO cartridges only.  I can't compare them with LO.

Thanks for all the input, guys.  I should have opened this thread before placing my order.  I chose the Benz Wood SL when I had it boiled down to it and the new Lyra Delos and the Grado Reference 1 and the Clearaudio Maestro.  I decided I wanted to go MC.  I shyed away from the Grado due to all the talk about the hum it picks of from the front positioned motor on the Classic.  The Benz is a favorite among customers of the two dealers I spoke to and it is a perfect match for the 10.5i SE in regards to compliance and weight.  The VPI website days this arm likes weights between 7 and 11g and compliance 11 to 16.  The Benz is 9g and 15.  So, that decision is in stone as I have placed the order.  Now to make up my mind whether to send the BP26P back to Bryston for the $800.00 upgrade to MC or go outboard with either the MS Nova Phenomena or the RSA Nighthawk.  Isn't this fun .  You guys are the best, thanks again.

Bill

[toobluvr]

The VPI website days this arm likes weights between 7 and 11g and compliance 11 to 16.  The Benz is 9g and 15.  So, that decision is in stone as I have placed the order. 

Just in case you need a backup plan, or just another cartridge to have fun with...........

The Dyna 20X also falls perfectly into those parameters:  8.6 g and 12 compliance.

FWIW, I have never come across anyone who dislikes this cartridge, especially on VPI setups.

 

[tnewell]

Hello,

I own a VPI Scoutmaster and recently bought a Benz Wood SL.  It replaced a Shelter 901.  Previous to the Shelter, I used a Dynavector 20XL.

The Benz is by far the best of the three in my system. It's very detailed but very smooth and natural sounding.

I am sure the Benz will sound fantastic with your VPI Classic.

Tom

[TheChairGuy]

Nor am I hearing any sonic benefits of the dual mono design.  Theory is great, but at end of the day, the ears are an excellent evaluator of talent, and will usually lead you to the right decision.

Everyone hears different nuances. Stereo recordings are made with two channels of information forming one stereo 'image'.  I hear the benefits of dual mono, particularly when they have entirely separate trannies for each channel, pretty readily.  I'm sure - not everyone does - and that I miss much that others hear more readily. 

But, two channels of stereo information normally yield a better, more realistic rendition of the recording to me. Ie, better 'imaging'

I am however getting superior bass presentation and greater dynamics, weight and slam with the non-battery unit.  This is an often cited criticism of battery powered units.

Yup - that's been my experience with a variety of battery powered units, too (amp and phono amps, both)

John

[toobluvr]

OK...let me put it a different way then.   More succinctly, the dual mono battery powered design does not sound better than the non-dual mono AC powered design.  No Siree, not in my system, not to my ears.   Not with HO cartridges.

I guess it's possible that if you consider each component separately .....dual mono vs. not, and battery vs not.......that the dual mono should provide better sound.  But I have no way of knowing this because all I hear is the net sound of the two units.  If the dual mono component is sonically superior, it is being outweighed by the superior dynamics / slam of the mains powered unit.  In other words, in terms of overall sound, the non-dual mono / non-battery unit simply sounds better to me.   

Others may hear differently, but so far three other guys hear it the same way in my system.

[95Dyna]

Hello,

I own a VPI Scoutmaster and recently bought a Benz Wood SL.  It replaced a Shelter 901.  Previous to the Shelter, I used a Dynavector 20XL.

The Benz is by far the best of the three in my system. It's very detailed but very smooth and natural sounding.

I am sure the Benz will sound fantastic with your VPI Classic.

Tom

Thanks tnewell, you made my day .

[95Dyna]

Hey toobluvr,

Did you stop to think that if tubes + vinyl = music it is also true that music -vinyl = tubes and music - tubes = vinyl?

I know you're a guy that can take it as well as you dish it out so I couldn't resist.

Bill

[toobluvr]

Hmmmm........

Your algebra teacher should be proud!