[sts9fan]

Buzz words (SET,Ag,Dual mono etc) don't make good audio.  Good designs do. 

[Kevin Haskins]

There is more to debunk than I have time but I'll generally say this....

John is right... you don't need to spend a lot of money to enjoy the hobby.   Don't let anyone tell you that you need an arbitrary amount of money to build a good system.    I know people that have five or six hundred dollars in a system they have kludged together and I'm convinced they actually use it and enjoy it more than people I know that have $500K in a system.   

I've been in this business for about a decade now.   I've designed amplifiers, loudspeakers including the transducers and signal processing widgets, tube pre-amps and solid state ones too.  I've used discrete and opamp base circuits and at the end of the day good design practices and common sense are the most important factors.... not money and not the greatest wiz-bang chip or device.

I personally steer clear of the people who preach about magic things.   I've seen enough BS in this industry and I'm a much bigger skeptic now than when I started.     Part of that is I just know a lot more and part of it is that I've seen that the emperor has no cloths.    Personal experience helps re-enforce those things.   

I don't try to preach things to other people.   I figure most people have a brain and can figure out how to use it.   You don't win many arguments by telling people they are wrong anyway and you are never going to find consensus in anything as subjective as audio reproduction.    Debate will be the norm and different people are going to come down in different places concerning all these things.    Different strokes for different folks is my motto.   

[gerald porzio]

Very well put.

[Nuance]

Very well put.

+1.  I'm going to try to adopt your motto, Kevin, even if I do love a good debate. 

[nathanm]

Room acoustics plays a huge part in the sound.  Cheap gear in a great room will beat great gear in a cheap room.

[James Romeyn]

Well put, all above. 

Someone who takes his audio views seriously said something similar to: all tweeters with soft domes and all cones with paper, plastic or plastic composite are automatically substandard/unworthy to audition.  Metal, ceramic and high-tech synthetics were the minimum standard cone/dome materials.   

[toobluvr]

Then in your opinion, are you saying science will never be relevant?

Anyone know of a science that is complete?

life is a mystery,

Dan   

I think it's perfectly clear what I said and what I mean.  And I gave an example that illustrates it perfectly.

My point is that those that use science and measurements in these audio discussions as the final arbiter of everything and as 100% and irrefutable proof of their position could well be wrong.    Not saying science is irrelevant.  Simply saying scientific findings/theories have been proven to be wrong countless times throughout history.   Noone can argue this.

Maybe the science is currently incomplete.....as it was during the "flat earth" period in my example.    Maybe there is something involved with acoustics and human hearing that has not yet been fully figured out by science.  Maybe there is some acoustic parameter that the ear is delivering to the brain, and interpreted there, that science does not even know exists, much less knows how to measure.  An auditory black hole!

       

[DanTheMan]

+1.  I'm going to try to adopt your motto, Kevin, even if I do love a good debate.

I wish I could adopt it completely--and I hate debating.  I have no problem with people buying whatever they want.  My concern is that sometimes people post things with a lot of enthusiasm based on their opinion at the moment( I know I've sure been guilty).  Often times this opinion is temporary and heavily influenced by the recording, listening environment and associated gear(both visual and auditory stimuli).  When I was younger and didn't have much money, this was very frustrating.  Now, I certainly don't care to part with my savings much easier than I used to, so I try understand what can be accomplished reasonably.  During high school and college I saved up money, listened to gear that others recommended, and made purchases heavily based on momentary opinion (heavily influenced by the same outside factors) only to get home and be frustrated that it only sounded good in certain conditions and was overall just a sideways move or not worth the monetary consequence.  I just don't want to see others post things that have little foundation in reality and make it difficult for younger or less affluent audiophiles to acquire something that isn't going to satisfy their needs.  Breaking the "Circle of Confusion" is essential for this IMO.  Trying to get something out of the recording or actually getting something out of the recording that isn't on it sure makes for confusion.  

Just my 2 cents,

Dan

[jtwrace]

I wish I could adopt it completely--and I hate debating.  I have no problem with people buying whatever they want.  My concern is that sometimes people post things with a lot of enthusiasm based on their opinion at the moment( I know I've sure been guilty).  Often times this opinion is temporary and heavily influenced by the recording, listening environment and associated gear(both visual and auditory stimuli).  When I was younger and didn't have much money, this was very frustrating.  Now, I certainly don't care to part with my savings much easier than I used to, so I try understand what can be accomplished reasonably.  During high school and college I saved up money, listened to gear that others recommended, and made purchases heavily based on momentary opinion (heavily influenced by the same outside factors) only to get home and be frustrated that it only sounded good in certain conditions and was overall just a sideways move or not worth the monetary consequence.  I just don't want to see others post things that have little foundation in reality and make it difficult for younger or less affluent audiophiles to acquire something that isn't going to satisfy their needs.  Breaking the "Circle of Confusion" is essential for this IMO.  Trying to get something out of the recording or actually getting something out of the recording that isn't on it sure makes for confusion.  

Just my 2 cents,

Dan

....and remember, it's about the music.

[DanTheMan]

I think it's perfectly clear what I said and what I mean.  And I gave an example that illustrates it perfectly.

My point is that those that use science and measurements in these audio discussions as the final arbiter of everything and as 100% and irrefutable proof of their position could well be wrong.    Not saying science is irrelevant.  Simply saying scientific findings/theories have been proven to be wrong countless times throughout history.   Noone can argue this.

Maybe the science is currently incomplete.....as it was during the "flat earth" period in my example.    Maybe there is something involved with acoustics and human hearing that has not yet been fully figured out by science.  Maybe there is some acoustic parameter that the ear is delivering to the brain, and interpreted there, that science does not even know exists, much less knows how to measure.  An auditory black hole!

      

That sounds better than

science doesn't work unless it is properly evolved and complete.

.  The science of audio reproduction is definitely incomplete, but that doesn't mean we should discount or not use what is known.  I'm just always surprised at how little science audiophiles use (I'm not singling anyone out here, just saying in general) to make their purchases.   To me it seems silly to discard what is known for what is hoped for or believed, but yes, to each his/her own.

Dan   

[DanTheMan]

....and remember, it's about the music.

EXACTLY!  I can enjoy the MUSIC I like on just about any device.  To reproduce it better is just the icing on the cake.

Dan

edit: to stay on topic, the links in my signature could be used to debunk some of this hobby's myths.  Yes, they are not even close to complete, but that doesn't make them useless.

[eclein]

Thanks for the links Dan, and thanks everyone for your thoughts!! Just what I was looking for....it really is all about the music.
I'm disabled and music is my salvation, I wanted to make sure I didn't buy any "snake oil"..thank you all!!!
 Ed L.

[DanTheMan]

Thanks for the links Dan, and thanks everyone for your thoughts!! Just what I was looking for....it really is all about the music.
I'm disabled and music is my salvation, I wanted to make sure I didn't buy any "snake oil"..thank you all!!!
 Ed L.

You're welcome.  Here's a couple more of my favorites:
http://www.music.miami.edu/programs/mue/Research/dkoya/table_of_contents.htm
http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/bitstream/2123/576/1/adt-NU20041221.13524302whole.pdf
http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/83/6/3548

Dan

[turkey]

And exactly what is the science and smell test?  I have a BSEE and MSEE, so I tend not to believe in wire making a difference.  On the other hand, I've performed comparisons on my system with interconnects and speaker cable and was easily able to hear a difference.  My logical brain doesn't like it, but that's what happened.

I, on the other hand, have done tests and did not hear differences between wires.

Also, just because things make logical sense don't mean they're correct.  For instance, it makes logical sense (at least to me) that eating more (insoluble) fiber would mean fewer cancers and other ailments because the fiber would allow potential carcinogens to pass through the body instead of being absorbed.  However, many actual (that is, not epidemiologic) tests of this hypothesis have failed to find such a benefit.  Sounds good, but it just doesn't work.

I'm not sure that I see what mechanism would allow for this. The insoluble fiber itself is not absorbed by the body, but how would that affect the absorption of carcinogens? Perhaps even more relevant is the observation that something that prevents carcinogens from being absorbed in the gut could just as easily block nutrients from being absorbed as well. (And this seems a likely outcome.)

[turkey]

As a new member to this hobby, I constantly read about various items that claim to make "all the difference", "cryo sealed", "special mojo"..etc.. you know what I'm talking about. Do $1400 interconnects make a huge impact? Do CD mats do anything? I am NOT in anyway saying all these things are crap, just using examples. So whats up with stuff?? Tell me what stuff you think is real and what stuff you think is bogus??

I think that you should select a pair of speakers that you like and perhaps some medium-expensive electronics (this might be a good place to get used equipment). Do what you can to add some room treatment to your listening room. Buy music that you want to listen to.

Only after you have these things done should you start looking at things like wires and other tweaks, or upgrading your electronics. (I would even argue that better speakers are a far better upgrade than amps or wires or whatever.)

Or you might just find that you are happy with your system as it is and not feel a need to upgrade.

[JohnR]

Seems like lately all threads in General Audio end up being the same. Oh well 

[mjosef]

That someone who claims to have been in the hobby for 200years has a lock-hold on all things audio.   

[James Romeyn]

Seems like lately all threads in General Audio end up being the same. Oh well 

A wise observation.  Why is that?  Not why is it a wise observation, but why do they end up the same?  I won't care in a few minutes because I'll be watching Last Waltz BD on a 92" perforated screen.     

[Nuance]

I wish I could adopt it completely--and I hate debating.  I have no problem with people buying whatever they want.  My concern is that sometimes people post things with a lot of enthusiasm based on their opinion at the moment( I know I've sure been guilty).  Often times this opinion is temporary and heavily influenced by the recording, listening environment and associated gear(both visual and auditory stimuli).  When I was younger and didn't have much money, this was very frustrating.  Now, I certainly don't care to part with my savings much easier than I used to, so I try understand what can be accomplished reasonably.  During high school and college I saved up money, listened to gear that others recommended, and made purchases heavily based on momentary opinion (heavily influenced by the same outside factors) only to get home and be frustrated that it only sounded good in certain conditions and was overall just a sideways move or not worth the monetary consequence.  I just don't want to see others post things that have little foundation in reality and make it difficult for younger or less affluent audiophiles to acquire something that isn't going to satisfy their needs.  Breaking the "Circle of Confusion" is essential for this IMO.  Trying to get something out of the recording or actually getting something out of the recording that isn't on it sure makes for confusion.  

Just my 2 cents,

Dan

Well said. 

[Nuance]

A wise observation.  Why is that?  Not why is it a wise observation, but why do they end up the same?  I won't care in a few minutes because I'll be watching Last Waltz BD on a 92" perforated screen.     

Similar topics, and similar ego's pushing opinions as facts.  When that happens, someone will always be there to debate the other side of the equation.  Its a never-ending cycle, even when someone actually gets proven wrong. 

92"?  Awesome!