[Levi]

Here is Pinarello then and now: back in 1993 Miguel Indurain used a Pinarello classic lug-and-tube Columbus steel frame which weighed 19lbs in Tour de Italia.  Now Bradley Wiggins uses a Pinarello Dogma 60.1.  I am sure if you are in CAT1 now, you will not use Indurain's bike. 

Nowadays, Carbon fiber replaced aluminum aero wheels, frame, fork, seatpost, handlebar and bottle cages in a modern race bike.

Carbon fiber can be formed in many ways.  Using wind-tunnel, carbon frames can be formed to cheat the wind unlike steel frames. 

Agree to disagree, I'm fine with that Levi.  Though not sure I am actually disagreeing with you.   

Carbon is great.  Would put my carbon bike(s) up against any in the world, period.

Riddle me this though.  If you could get a steel frame to say within a 1/2 - 3/4 lb of carbon, why would a rider of equal caliber not do as well on the steel frame?  Please think about Sean Kelly before telling me stiffness is the be all.  Sorry just dated myself as a former Cat 1 racer during that time.

I'm certainly not trying to pick an fight here, just curious for one's thoughts.  Sorry comes natural being a "psych" major.  And if we agree to disagree, I'm fine with that too.  It is what makes the world go around, opinions.  Everybody is their own movie critic.  For example I think the Clayton Bros stink.  Maybe I am just still made at you I was not invited to the NYAR in 10'.   

I love your Cervelo.  You have put together a top notch build and I have no doubt you can ride me into the ground right now whether I am on a carbon, steel, or carbon frame. Though watch out, if I pull out my Stingray you are dead meat.

Thanks for the tim and peace Levi.

[jackman]

I am glad that we agreed to disagree.   

Perhaps, my background is racing.  My group who joins races every week (CAT1 and CAT2) would agree.  That is not to bring a knife to a gun fight.  Like wheels, aerodynamic frames do have an advantage but that is only if you go above 25-35mph.  Speeds I often realize in our group trainings.
To each his own.   

Hey, if you are hitting speeds above 35, and you aren't going down a hill or riding with a stiff tail-wind, you might want to find a spot on that bike for a number!  I have hit 40+mph but only on downhill sections, same with 30+ for that matter.  I'm very impressed and 100% certain I would get dropped by your group within 10 seconds, on any bike that didn't have a motor.

I love riding fast...as fast as these 45 year old legs will take me.  Weekend rides with the group are exciting but I need to find the discipline to ride more during the week, and watch my diet.  It's too hard carting my 200lbs into a 30mph wind or up a hill, trying to keep up with guys who weigh 30-40lbs less.  I was comparing power numbers with a guy in my group and was shocked to see a 150lb guy with much better average wattage than me.  His average was 203 compared to my 187, and the only thing that kept me from getting dropped was some crafty wheel-sucking, and a couple traffic stops that allowed the us to regroup. 

This guy is older than me (he's in his 50's), which somehow gives me hope!  Before getting into cycling, I never knew older guys could ride so fast.  I've met several guys in their 50's and 60's who regularly put the hurt on younger riders.  This is perhaps the biggest "shocker" I've discovered since I started cycling a couple short years ago:  You can be fast and old (you can also be slow and old, or slow and young but I already knew that!). 

Last year, a guy in his late 50's joined one of our 40 mile training rides and shocked me at how fast and strong he was.  He pulled for much of the ride, even on uphill sections and into strong headwinds, and the riding group featured some fast guys.  Plus, he seemed to be taking it easy on us.  The guy was too modest to admit it but my friend told me later that this guy routinely does sub-5 hour century rides with a group of older, former racers (some of whom are in their 60's!).  To anyone who has never tried a century ride (100 miles), 20mph average over 100 mile distance is very impressive (to me at least).  I've never managed 20mph (officially on the Garmin, no estimates!) on a 40 mile ride.  Not even close!   

I've given this some thought and have decided to set some goals (since my other efforts at increasing my speed are not working).  I'm going to systematically approach my training and weight management and build up to a 5 hour century.  Might not be able to do it this year but I think I can manage a 20mph average over 40 miles this year.  Once I hit that,  I'm shooting for 20mph average over 50 miles and so on.  On a recent 30 mile ride, I had long stretches in the high 20's on wind-less flat sections but struggled into a headwind later in the ride when the sun went down and wind shifted.  My average was around 18mph and I don't think I could have gone much faster. 

I'm open to tips from all of the fast guys out there!  In addition to more training miles and weight-loss, I'm incorporating intervals into my training and better nutrition.  This may be a separate thread but does anyone have any training tips they can share? 

Thanks,
J

[Levi]

Hey Jack, don't worry about your speed, just keep riding and set your personal goals. Keep riding with fast riders (8:00 or 8:30am group) you tend to develope your own technique and get to push yourself really hard. 

Cross training with other sports like Mountain biking also helps. 

Lastly, ditch the gdata specially the average speed. I noticed that if you stop in a light(s) ave speed suffers. My .02.

My group always complain that they cannot draft behind me because I have such a small frame (142lbs) .   

[jackman]

Hey Jack, don't worry about your speed, just keep riding and set your personal goals. Keep riding with fast riders (8:00 or 8:30am group) you tend to develope your own technique and get to push yourself really hard. 

Cross training with other sports like Mountain biking also helps. 

Lastly, ditch the gdata specially the average speed. I noticed that if you stop in a light(s) ave speed suffers. My .02.

My group always complain that they cannot draft behind me because I have such a small frame (142lbs) .   

Whenever I hear about a new guy showing up for a ride with my group, I'm always hopeful he's a big guy with a nice wheel I can camp out on.     Recent additions have all been small guys who are too fast to keep up with (and too small to get a decent draft from), or big guys who can't hang.  A former racer who recently moved to Chicago from California joined the group recently who was big and fast (on a POS Felt aluminum bike with 105!) but he only showed up once because he was too fast and I think he wanted a faster group.  This has only happened once in two years because most riders (including racers) don't mind the pace of our group. 

Gdata is moving average but this slows down when you stop at intersections and stop signs so I know what you mean.  I've got a power meter and I should be looking at average power.  Average power is the most objective measure because it is not influenced by wind, drafting or other factors that affect average mph.  I've had easy rides with higher mph average than much more difficult rides with slower mph avg.  Watts don't lie.  My new objective is to average 200 watts for a 40 mile ride (and then longer distances).  I still want to do a sub 5 hour century! 

Thanks for the cross-training tip.  I've got a mountainbike but don't ride it often.  Mainly around the neighborhood with my 6 year old son.  Will have to get out and hit the trails with my MTB.  There are loads of hotties on the local MUP lately (women's triathelon training) so the scenery is much better than the country roads on which I usually toil!  Time to dust off the Cannondale!

Cheers,

Jack

Cheers,
J

[Levi]

I'd love to have a power meter on my cranks.  That would be the ultimate in training tool!  I can't think about that right now because that is not healthy for my wallet.   

If you like hotties, Central Park is your destiny.   

[jackman]

I'd love to have a power meter on my cranks.  That would be the ultimate in training tool!  I can't think about that right now because that is not healthy for my wallet.   

If you like hotties, Central Park is your destiny.   

I couldn't handle those Central Park hotties running around without crashing my bike!  Not that I would mind...

[JoshK]

Welll lets just say you don't want to be wearing lycra when riding around CP. 

[AB]

Jackman,
My advice is to start doing 2x20 intervals once per week.
Warm up for around 15 minutes then hit 90% of your FTP for 20 minutes. Rest for 10 minutes by soft pedaling and then do it again. I usually pick a route that will give me a 20 minute easy ride back home.

If you're averaging 187 Watts on 2 hour rides, I would sort of expect your FTP to be around 210 to 220 watts. I could be very wrong there but you'll need to start somewhere and most pple resist going out and doing an FTP test - they just want to go out and ride. If you want to test your FTP, there are many sites on the web where you can get the details.

Basically, to find your FTP you need to go out and hammer WFO for a period of time - some say 20 minute warm up followed by a few all out sprints to wake up your legs then a 20 minute all out time trial. The average of that 20 minute TT less 5% will be your FTP. Some folks say this overestimates your FTP and the only true way to determine it is to do a 60 minute all out TT. I don't think it matters too much as long as your efforts are really full on all out efforts for the time you choose. It is VERY hard to pace a 60 minute TT so most pple feel 20 minutes is a good place to start.

I would also include some 4x10 intervals in there too, maybe once every 10 days. Do these at 100-110% of your FTP. Rest 10 minutes between each. Do a 20 minute WU before and a 20 minute easy effort afterwards.

You can also do classic hill repeats. Find a hill you can climb in 10 minutes - or whatever - and hammer up it a bunch of times. Do some efforts sitting all the way and do some standing at the bottom and again at the top. Drive over the top. Always drive over the top .

[Levi]

Nice! 

[jackman]

Jackman,
My advice is to start doing 2x20 intervals once per week.
Warm up for around 15 minutes then hit 90% of your FTP for 20 minutes. Rest for 10 minutes by soft pedaling and then do it again. I usually pick a route that will give me a 20 minute easy ride back home.

If you're averaging 187 Watts on 2 hour rides, I would sort of expect your FTP to be around 210 to 220 watts. I could be very wrong there but you'll need to start somewhere and most pple resist going out and doing an FTP test - they just want to go out and ride. If you want to test your FTP, there are many sites on the web where you can get the details.

Basically, to find your FTP you need to go out and hammer WFO for a period of time - some say 20 minute warm up followed by a few all out sprints to wake up your legs then a 20 minute all out time trial. The average of that 20 minute TT less 5% will be your FTP. Some folks say this overestimates your FTP and the only true way to determine it is to do a 60 minute all out TT. I don't think it matters too much as long as your efforts are really full on all out efforts for the time you choose. It is VERY hard to pace a 60 minute TT so most pple feel 20 minutes is a good place to start.

I would also include some 4x10 intervals in there too, maybe once every 10 days. Do these at 100-110% of your FTP. Rest 10 minutes between each. Do a 20 minute WU before and a 20 minute easy effort afterwards.

You can also do classic hill repeats. Find a hill you can climb in 10 minutes - or whatever - and hammer up it a bunch of times. Do some efforts sitting all the way and do some standing at the bottom and again at the top. Drive over the top. Always drive over the top .

Thanks AB!  I'm tired of being slow and need to follow a systematic plan.  I"m going to incorporate intervals as you have suggested.   Will also follow the FTP guidelines.  I have not tested my formal guidelines but your estimates are probably a close enough figure to start with.

Cheers,

J

[AB]

2x20 Intervals are the standard technique for raising FTP, and raising your FTP is how you will get faster overall. If you were unhappy with your sprinting or you were getting dropped on your group rides during surges, you would be looking at doing shorter intervals but looking to increase your speed over long rides, this is the way to go.

How long have you been seeing 187w or so average? Has it been going up recently?

People often figure increasing miles will make them stronger but most riders quickly plateau - they don't get faster, they only spend more time at the same pace. So if you're putting in lots of miles, I would recommend you cut back and do shorter, more intense efforts instead.  I wouldn't give up the group rides but I would do some focused one to two hour solo efforts in place of your longer rides.

I would bet you'll raise your FTP 10% or more in 4 weeks doing 2x20s and 4x10s.

And why should you do intervals??

http://youtu.be/kkSFIWzi7aA

 

[Levi]

Good info AB. 

Jackman, along with your power meter it is easier to see if you increased your FTP.  Ultimately your cruising speed.

Ave MPH is not a measure of progress or how fast someone is.  There are simply too many variables involved in ave speed. I think Phil started that by means of impressing people here. LOL! (hopefully this would provoke Phil to come out of hiding).

According to the graph below, 165W average simply taking your bike for a walk. 

Thanks to AB.  Use that power meter along with yout HR. 

Now you have no more excuse. 
http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_factsheets/constant/functhresh.htm

[jackman]

Thanks guys, I just got back from a ride and I'm beat.  Missed my group this morning and went solo.  Those blacktop roads with no shade are brutally hot (102F on the Garmin!) and I swear it felt like I had a headwind for most of the ride (I know this isn't possible but that's how it felt). 

I drank 6 bottles of water (brought 3 and refilled each during the ride), and I was thirsty when I returned home.  My little toe feels like it's going to fall off but I'm really happy to have made it back. 

A funny story about my ride home (funny to me at least).  My legs were dead, I was really hot and out of water, and worst of all my toe was hurting like crazy (no idea why) about 30 miles into my ride.  I had about 12 miles to go on my way home, when I spotted a young guy on a 29" MTB about a half a block behind me.  He was wearing a bright orange shirt so he was hard to miss.  There was little wind and the final section was (thankfully) relatively flat, and I was taking it easy after doing some interval training (more on the specifics later if anyone is interested) earlier in the ride.

I glanced over my shoulder to check for cars as I approached an intersection and this guy on the MTB comes flying past me, pedaling all out, standing on the pedals!  The voice in my head was saying, "hey,  I just did 30 miles in 100F degree heat and my toe is going to fall off, give me a break!" but the other voice in my head said, "screw this, you just got passed by a guy on a mountainbike, you loser!".  As I often do, I listened to the second voice and decided that if I was going to be passed by a guy on a MTB, it was not going to be without a fight.   

I stood on my pedals and gave it everything I had.  At this point, my sunglasses were completely soaked in sweat, I could barely see and I honestly was ready to pass out.  I looked down at my Garmin (which had been a bit wonky all day, turning off on its own two separate times) and it registered 850 watts, 31 mph, as I passed the guy.  As I passed, the only thing I that came to mind was, "nice day!" so that's what I said, with a big smile.  I kept the full-out effort up for the final two or three miles (sitting down the whole time I was in front of the guy because I wanted to make it look like I was not working hard) because I assumed this guy was on my tail but when I turned around he was several blocks behind, neary out of sight.   

After the guy gave up his chase, as I rode home, it occured to me that I was in a losing battle.  The guy was young and in seemingly good shape (he was doing over 25 mph during a flat road sprint on a MTB), and he had a nice bike but it was still a MTB trying to beat a guy on a road bike in a sprint.  Beating someone on a mountainbike, even at the end of a long ride did not feel good!  Losing to a MTB would have felt worse, I can't lie! 

The thing that really bothered me is that this guy really thought he could beat me on his MTB.  I'm far from fast (compared to guys in my group) but I was ready to risk heat stroke, heart attack, crash, you name it, before losing to a MTB bike rider in a road sprint.  WTF is wrong with me?   

Bollox...

J

[BikeWNC]

Some of the local pros had to go ride elsewhere because everyone wanted to race them all the time.  The pros and most higher cat riders stick to their plan when on the bike.  They can't afford to get suckered into racing while out on a specific training ride.  Save the efforts for when they really count. 

Of course if you are out riding to have some fun and aren't training for anything specific it's perfectly ok to crush some souls!  Even if that soul is yours!  lol

[jackman]

Some of the local pros had to go ride elsewhere because everyone wanted to race them all the time.  The pros and most higher cat riders stick to their plan when on the bike.  They can't afford to get suckered into racing while out on a specific training ride.  Save the efforts for when they really count. 

Of course if you are out riding to have some fun and aren't training for anything specific it's perfectly ok to crush some souls!  Even if that soul is yours!  lol

It's stupid and immature to try to race people unless you are in a formal race.  I know this and agree with the logic 100%.  It's just that I could picture this guy telling his friends how he blew away some joker in spandex riding a skinny tire bike.  The thought made me crazy!  Someday I will learn...

Cheers,

J

[AB]

Have you heard the term "Cat 6" racing?
Well, you just won a Cat 6 race. 

And many 29er "Mtn" bikes are silly fast machines. My Cannondale weighs 21 lbs and with a little hard effort, I have no problem maintaining road bike speeds. It's hardly fair to call some of them Mtn bikes at all.

Now post up those numbers...

[jackman]

Hey guys, I did a metric century today (an organized ride sponsored by the Joliet Bicycle Club).  Metric centuries are kind've a bogus distance because it's only 63 miles.  To be honest, I forgot that I signed up until my neighbor clued me in last night.  It was painfully hot and my group hooked up with a really fast group in the begining of the ride.  I stayed with them as long as I could but lost them before the first rest area. 

Something is going on with my Garmin because it turned off several times during the ride and my total mileage is underrepresented.  This probably helped my avg mph because I was really struggling towards the end anyway.  I think I have my Garmin in some strange energy saving mode or something because it did the same thing on Saturday.  As I stated, it was very hot and I hit the wall midway through the ride.  On a positive note, after I lost my group,  I hooked up with a slower group (people I've ridden with before) that  included a couple hotties.  Two lovely ladies who were training for a tri.  It occured to me that I'd rather ride with a couple attractive girls, even if they are slower (they were faster than me) than a bunch of fast riding dudes.  I need to lay down because I'm beat. 

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/96844360

Cheers,

J

[viggen]

That's a very fast pace for a metric century.

I went out last week to ride 65 miles but my Garmin ran out of battery when I was only 10 ft from my house.  Forgot to charge it up: lesson learned.  I think my pace is somewhere in the low 15s as I finished in just under 4 hrs.  Elevation gain was around low 3k though.

[BikeWNC]

Finally got back on the bike this weekend, all four days.  A friend came up to visit and on Fri we did a short ride on the BRP in the late afternoon.   I forgot my HR strap but it is interesting how this ride compares to the same ride two days later.  I would say the Fri ride is at a RPE of 6/10.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/96321061

On Sat. we rode our mtbs over the mountain to Cades Cove in GSMNP.  It's a unimproved gravel road over the hill and there are some very steep grades with a soft, loose roadbed at times.  Quite a challenge.  This ride is a little short on the Garmin file because the speeds were slow and the unit kept losing the sat signal in the woods.  However, I was worn out and didn't eat enough on the ride.

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/96321029

Sunday morning we planned a 50 mile ride on the BRP early before any traffic picked up.  It was obvious from the start I had no legs and even almost fell asleep on the bike!  I had to weave across the road just to get up a 7% grade.  I turned around where I had on the ride on Friday.  This was a painful ride.  My HR just wouldn't budge.  RPE was about a 9! 

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/96808788

This morning we rode a short 25 miles from town.  I felt a bit better but the mtb ride took a lot out of my legs.  I'll take a day off and try again on Wed. 

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/96808748

Andy

[jackman]

Hey Guys,
Thanks for sharing your ride info!  I had high hopes for today's ride but could not hang with the big boys for long. My friend sent me his Garmin data and the fast group finished with an avg MPH of around 22mph. There was an even faster group of racres and former racers who dropped my friends. Those guys were really fast.

Lots of cool bikes on the road today including some sweet Cervelo tri and timetrial bikes. My favorite of the day was a Lynskey Helix with Enve fork, wheels and SRAM red.  It was polished Ti with lazor etched graphics. Also, some of these older guys were really fast and strong riders.  A group of them were hauling butt and were planning to ride the course two times today for over 123 miles.  95F degrees made me glad it was only 60ish miles for me.

Damn I'm beat...

Cheers
J