Will a ribbon help or ruin single driver sound?

roymail · « **on:** 29 Mar 2010, 11:17 am »

JLM · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 Mar 2010, 12:44 pm »

Blasphemy!

Depends on how sensitive you are to high frequencies and if it would "tilt" (weigh/bias) the presentation too much towards the higher frequencies.

Try test tones and find out if you can hear much above 12,000 Hz (most can't). And frankly there ain't much useful musical material there anyway. Most of what you'd gain is a greater sense of "air".

Note that most wide-bandwidth drivers are already "tilted" towards the higher frequencies anyway and struggle to provide a full bodied presentation.

If I was looking for an augmented single driver solution I'd think the ideal would be something like a 4 inch driver with a subwoofer of some sort.

Bemopti123 · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 Mar 2010, 01:12 pm »

I think this is highly subjective. From some of the reading and anecdotes I have read, any sort of ribbon/tweeter pairing can have a positive effect on the set up. JE Labs, on his website compared several 8" drivers, from olden WE 755As to other more obscure ones and especially in the different 755 comparison claims that tweeters can actually make a driver sound more balanced, with more low frequencies. Perhaps this is due that this midrange point and its output not comparable to the hi efficiency, increased output of the tweeter that from the listener's perspective, the midrangey driver actually "sounds" as if it is producing more lows.

Furthermore, a member here in AC also told me about his experience pairing a 755E OB with ribbons and that it sounded fantastic.

Nevertheless, you need to mate whatever you are thinking about introducing well with the lower efficiency elements.

roymail · « **Reply #3 on:** 29 Mar 2010, 03:29 pm »

Try test tones and find out if you can hear much above 12,000 Hz (most can't).

JLM, that's a good idea. What's the best way of doing that? Anything online, I'll have to check on that.

edit: You're right, I found two websites with test tones and 12,500hz is barely audible. I could hear 12,000 pretty well. Anything above 12,500hz was nothing.

So that does give me something to work with. Don't get me wrong, the wide range single drivers I've listened to sound great. I love the little Fostex 127e for example and I really want to try Louis' Hemp drivers.

Thanks, guys for your input. btw, every sub I've tried only works well with HT but not so much in my 2 channel.

JackD201 · « **Reply #4 on:** 29 Mar 2010, 03:58 pm »

Quote from: Bemopti123 on 29 Mar 2010, 01:12 pm

I think this is highly subjective. From some of the reading and anecdotes I have read, any sort of ribbon/tweeter pairing can have a positive effect on the set up. JE Labs, on his website compared several 8" drivers, from olden WE 755As to other more obscure ones and especially in the different 755 comparison claims that tweeters can actually make a driver sound more balanced, with more low frequencies. Perhaps this is due that this midrange point and its output not comparable to the hi efficiency, increased output of the tweeter that from the listener's perspective, the midrangey driver actually "sounds" as if it is producing more lows.

Furthermore, a member here in AC also told me about his experience pairing a 755E OB with ribbons and that it sounded fantastic.

Nevertheless, you need to mate whatever you are thinking about introducing well with the lower efficiency elements.

I'm inclined to agree. I've heard one of Joseph's (JE) personal mono OB rigs a couple of times without ever reading his website.

sts9fan · « **Reply #5 on:** 29 Mar 2010, 04:00 pm »

I think it all depends on where its crossed. Although you will no longer be single driver.

chrisby · « **Reply #6 on:** 29 Mar 2010, 04:30 pm »

Quote from: sts9fan on 29 Mar 2010, 04:00 pm

I think it all depends on where its crossed. Although you will no longer be single driver.

in my own experience with the FE127E, adding a small ribbon or even horn loaded tweeter above 10-12K can certainly add some "air up there" - it's certainly interesting what even a little bit extra in that last octave (or far less depending on your hearing ) can do - there's far more going on than simple frequency response in our perception

provided the main driver has smooth enough natural HF roll off, a simple cap on the tweeter is probably all you'll need

if the tweeter has higher sensitivity than the main driver, simply reduce the value of the cap to raise the filter hinge point and take advantage of the driver's own attenuation

SET Man · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 Mar 2010, 06:29 pm »

Quote from: sts9fan on 29 Mar 2010, 04:00 pm

I think it all depends on where its crossed. Although you will no longer be single driver.

Hey!

That would make it a 1.5 way I think

Well, actually that is what I have now

Anyway, back to the OP's Q. I would also say depend on how high you are going to xover it.

I added inexpensive Fostex FT17H Horn on top of my 167E. I xovered them very high with a single .47uf cap, a 1st order gentle slope. Yes, I could hear some lower freq when they are run by themselves but it was very low and once their in the system they do not call attention at all. Basically I'm using them as super duper tweeters

I could live with just the main drivers but the super tweeters do make sound a bit better overall. I say go for if your main drivers do go up high already. It will take some try with the xover and SPL matching but I think it worth it. Especially if you have a good vinyl rig and cart that have good high extension way up there.

Take care,
Buddy

chadh · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Mar 2010, 08:39 pm »

There are commercial examples of people trying to do this kind of thing: mate wide-band drivers with a ribbon, and using some minimal crossover. Several have been well received as well. Here are some examples:

Tonian Labs: http://www.tonianlabs.com/TL-D1.htm or http://www.tonianlabs.com/TL-D2.htm

Sonist: http://www.sonist.com/SONIST_PRODUCTS.html#ProdC3 or http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1274188925&/Sonist-New-Recital-3-USA-made-

Chad

Danny Richie · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Mar 2010, 09:05 pm »

Hey guys,

Anytime you add any tweeter to a full range driver using a first order crossover like that, you get a 6db peak somewhere because they are in phase and a 15db dip somewhere because they are out of phase.

If you move the tweeter forward or backward in relation to the full range driver then you can move the frequency range of the peak and dip around to different areas. In some cases you can get multiple peaks and dips.

The only real way to make it work is to face it backwards or up fire it.

roymail · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 Mar 2010, 09:12 pm »

Danny, thanks for jumping in here.

Maybe you can help me understand how Zu does it so well? Or, does it only seem like a full range driver and tweeter since they have such high sensitivity?

Thanks!

Danny Richie · « **Reply #11 on:** 29 Mar 2010, 09:27 pm »

Quote

Maybe you can help me understand how Zu does it so well?

What makes you think they do? The measurements are a pretty rough and will show exactly what I mentioned.

http://stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/zu_essence_loudspeaker/index5.html

Just like moving the tweeter forward or backward and seeing be deeps and peaks moving around all over the place, on a speaker like those, you can just move the mic up a few inches at a time and get the same effect as the vertical off axis responses will look like a roller coaster.

knut_the_viking · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Mar 2010, 06:48 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 29 Mar 2010, 12:44 pm

Blasphemy!

Depends on how sensitive you are to high frequencies and if it would "tilt" (weigh/bias) the presentation too much towards the higher frequencies.

Try test tones and find out if you can hear much above 12,000 Hz (most can't).

http://homerecording.about.com/od/homestudiobasics/a/test_tones.htm
I could hear the 17,000Hz tone fine. The 18,000Hz tone i couldn't. (Maybe the speakers or headphones aren't up to it)

roymail · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Mar 2010, 07:21 pm »

According to several charts I've seen, there's no music above 12,000 or at least nothing I could hear?

DanTheMan · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Mar 2010, 08:04 pm »

There is life up there.

http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~boyk/spectra/spectra.htm
and a plausible reason to reproduce it:
http://jn.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/83/6/3548

That said. You better have either a great analog source or high def digital source and wide band amplifier to make it worth your while. Also this is where your cables may need some real engineering. Some amps can have issues oscillating in this frequency range. This is one area where transmission line theory may be applicable to audio. Cool

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=59717.0

Dan

DanTheMan · « **Reply #15 on:** 30 Mar 2010, 08:06 pm »

One more thing to check out:
http://www.digital-recordings.com/heari ... elp_p.html
See what your ear is capable of.

Dan

roymail · « **Reply #16 on:** 30 Mar 2010, 09:49 pm »

I can't hear 15Khz, so for me I guess it's not an issue.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #17 on:** 30 Mar 2010, 10:10 pm »

Hey, even at 10kHz you are way out of the range of any fundamental of any instrument or vocal.

Try digitally removing it and all of the spacial cues and separation in the sound stage will really fall apart.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #18 on:** 31 Mar 2010, 02:01 am »

Here is a more complete listing of musical instruments frequency ranges and their harmonic overtones. Note in particular that cymbals extend to beyond 15kH. In fact their harmonics extend to around 25kHz although they are substantially lower in level than the 15Khz content.

Scotty

Danny Richie · « **Reply #19 on:** 31 Mar 2010, 02:09 am »

I know those overtones can carry over quite a bit in each direction, but some of those seem a little exaggerated.

Unquestionably though, extension out to 20kHz is a must.