[Mr Content]

Hi Dan, Well I can see from that post, that you are not a single driver man, or a OB man. Thats OK, I am sure we only are a small group compared to the most. I use a 6 watt tube amp as well, so I would clearly fit into a minority group. But I am happy, and really have nothing to prove. If my hearing is shot, then I am still happy, because what I am hearing is very good. I only came into this discussion based on what I am hearing, not trying to peddle my point of view.........sorry if I came off preachy. I think we all hear and like something different, but thats normal, and just the way God made us.
I am glad you are happy with your speakers...enjoy

Mr C

[DanTheMan]

No, not preachy Mr. C.  I hope I wasn't as well.  I'm just a big fan of proof.  In audio, that puts me in the minority as well.   Don't get me wrong, there are some things material that FRers can do OK with, OB has real potential as well--esp in the midbass where it becomes unfortunately inefficient, and I have tube amps as well.  It always amazes me how many assumptions are made by others based on just a few words.   If I ever get a large enough room, I will do a grand OB build.  I'm far more familiar with its strength and weaknesses now than ever before.  I'm sure I'll learn a lot more if there's ever another time around.  I still want to see someone build a nice "L" baffle so that they can be toed in at a sharp degree angle and improve IACC and imaging.  I wish I had done it.  If I ever do OB again, I'll be sure to give it a shot.  Hopefully someone else will give it a shot.

Dan

[-Richard-]

It is so interesting to read what appears as a kind of "template" for an unfolding discussion in these OB threads.

Someone perhaps begins by asking our community what we think about the Visaton B200's implemented in an Open Baffle design. Members of our community... or at least those of us who have worked with and tried various options of amps, cross-overs, baffle designs, additional speakers and so on give our sense of what we think we are hearing... the sum and "essence" of our experience.

Then out come the charts... and we are shown the "reality" that disproves our experience... the charts are "real"... they are "science"... our experience is downgraded into mere "assumptions" and perhaps the result of impaired hearing or specific musical tastes that are "limited" and therefore not inclusive and representative of more normal musical tastes and so on.

I suppose that working with OB's is demanding... certainly getting the speakers, baffles, sources and amps to work together is challenging. I can see how it might not work out. My own experience had its ups and downs. There were times when I was stuck... I did not know how to proceed.

That is the essence of learning. We place ourselves in a situation where the unknown must be addressed until we understand better how to address it intelligently. From those apparent difficulties we learn how to think differently... how to open ourselves to new kinds of creative thinking.

Working with OB's has taught me everything I wanted to know about audio... the differences between different types of amplifier designs for example and how they affect our perception of sound, speaker designs and various kinds of baffle designs, room interactions, material considerations... the list goes on and on.

I cannot imagine that the B200's could possibly be the best drivers for everyone's musical tastes. But the question is this... can the B200's be so implemented in a modest Open Baffle design and using a combination of various factors (amps, additional speakers, cross-overs and so on) be made to sound truly engaging, deeply satisfying, musically right, spatially holographic... perhaps even inspired on some musical material? Well the answer is a resounding yes. That is what Deborah and I experience every day we turn on one of our 2 alternative amplifier systems that send musical signals to our Open Baffles speakers using the Visaton B200's (augmented with 15" bass drivers).

Once our Open Baffle speakers sounded musically right (compared to live musical events) Deborah and I had a bit of fun listening to speakers that we have always loved... and every time Deborah, who loves music perhaps even more than I do, but is definitely not an audiophile by any standard that is reasonable, turns to me and explains why our OB's sound so much better than what we are listening to... in detail... with a clear perceptual sense of the inner life, or lack of it, of what we are hearing.

The reason is not a mystery... Deborah and I have learned to hear music reproduced with life, textural and harmonic richness and emotional vitality and depth by being exposed to music rendered by our Open Baffle system.

The reason many of us began to work with the Visaton B200's in our Open Baffle experiments is because they were reasonably priced, they were accessible, had nice characteristics like high efficiency, and covered quite a nice frequency gamut. Dan Mason infected me with his always inspired prose to jump in and learn something that would change my audio life and suggested I start with the B200's. It was a good place to start.

Surely there must be better drivers out there. I did look into quite a few drivers that were high on my wish list... but mostly they were expensive... or, just as demanding to work with as the B200's. So I have stayed with the B200's as my mid to high-frequency driver along with a 15" bass driver and a simple cross-over.

Music is wonderful... isn't it?

With Warmest Regards ~ Richard

[DanTheMan]

Nice post Richard.  I do appreciate the time and thought into that went into it. 

Dan

[el`Ol]

What is so bad about a compensation? All the Visaton build suggestions have one, and it's easy.
http://www.visaton.de/de/bauvorschlaege/breitband/solo_eck/bauanleitung.html

[planet10]

I'm just a big fan of proof.

What consitutes proof?

dave

[markC]

Well done, Richard, no one can say it like you can. Oh, and by the way, from your description, Deborah is an an audiophile.

[DanTheMan]

What consitutes proof?

dave

A graph of the results.  You've read Olive's work. 

Dan

[rjbond3rd]

I have enjoyed the B200 and all I had to do was level out the rising response with some digital EQ and a bit of positioning.  On cello, they were absolutely incredible.  Excursion-limited but on certain music it wasn't a problem.  On OB they didn't do a great job of rock (for me).

I didn't use any measuring equipment, just ears.  A friend sent me a FR graph and it wasn't far off from what I had arrived at.  I'm looking for an inexpensive RTA.

Graphs don't explain why a speaker with a ruler-flat response can still sound dull   Nor do they capture the differences in tone and character.   For example, some people crave "effortless dynamics" above all else, which has nothing to do with an FR graph.  As a snapshot, it is informative, and definitely an important tool in the toolbox.  There are other variables.

Regarding the article on what average people prefer, didn't Geddes find that they didn't mind distortion?

[doorman]

At the end of the day, the ears have it!
Having heard the B200's in OB, I can understand their appeal!
Best, Don

[planet10]

A graph of the results.  You've read Olive's work. 

Which to be done properly requires an anechoic chamber, a real calibrated mic, 70 measurements, and software to convert those into the appropriate plots. And then there is the part required to deal with the bass..

I suggest you get & read Tool's book... the Olive stuff on line really fleshes out when you get the entire context.

BTW this is one of the few works that calibrates what people hear to what can be measured ... it has yet thou to be independently verified. It also makes the assumption that all amplifiers & wire are for all intents and purposes are the same, something which has not been validated.

dave

[markC]

I have heard a handfull of amps driving the B200 and they defineatly do so differently. These may be my ears that are evaluating, but they can't be that skewed.
To me, what the B200 does for midrange in open baffle setup is stellar. That's why I use them in that context. I don't particularily like them for highs, that's why I cross them to a tweeter. They do lows very well, but alas, limited excusion is the killer. I do mean that literally, by the way, as I've killed 2 drivers by feeding them too much power. I still have plans for a 2 - B200 + tweeter speaker on my puter. I spent several hours developing the preliminary design. That way they can share the load and not be as stressed by high bass output demand. Perhaps one day it will happen...

[doorman]

What size are your baffles?
(sounds a bit too personal when phrased like that, no?!! )
Don

[Mr Content]

Different amps do really make the B200 sound very different. What you are getting here is the opinions of long term users of the B200. Now obviously these will not suit everyone, but there are enough users out there to make these a viable choice as a driver to build  very good system around. Shouty is not one of the terms I would use for this driver optioned properly with other components, and the right baffle size and construction. 

Mr C

[markC]

What size are your baffles?
(sounds a bit too personal when phrased like that, no?!! )
Don

Baffles are 30" wide, 40" tall. There are a couple pics of them in my gallery.

[DanTheMan]

My last post should say Drs. Toole and Olive's work.

Which to be done properly requires an anechoic chamber, a real calibrated mic, 70 measurements, and software to convert those into the appropriate plots. And then there is the part required to deal with the bass..

I guess "properly" is a broad enough for you to dispute any measurements done outside of an anechoic chamber, but if you know what you are doing, you know that's just not true.  Real calibrated mics aren't that expensive, 70 measurements aren't necessary for a DIYer, but they certainly don't hurt either.  Thank goodness bass needs to be done in room, otherwise useful measurements would not be so doable and would actually be difficult. 

I suggest you get & read Tool's book... the Olive stuff on line really fleshes out when you get the entire context.

I've read Toole's book, much of it twice or thrice.  Perhaps you should read it if you think my comments suggest I haven't.  It's loudspeaker/room connection 101--not complete, but it's the best I know of.  That's how I found the link to Dr. Olive.  I'm shocked that you have read the book and still desire to perpetuate the Circle of Confusion.  My first thought was how do we get out of it and still have a maximally enjoyable listening experience.  I don't understand where ignoring what we know will help anyone.  I give links in my signature because they are free and useful for all audiophiles.  Reading Toole's book would certainly be better than those couple links, but it's not free or something that can be completed in a few minutes.

BTW this is one of the few works that calibrates what people hear to what can be measured ... it has yet thou to be independently verified. It also makes the assumption that all amplifiers & wire are for all intents and purposes are the same, something which has not been validated.

 
You tune TLs by ear and can't hear what he demonstrates.  I'm surprised you're publicly attempting to question the validity of such works at this stage because they didn't mention what cables or amplifiers they used.   We all know how much they effect polar response and blind listening tests.  Lets try to have a serious discussion, or none at all.

I think El`Ol has the best idea for B200 users who don't or can't measure--use what Visaton recommends or a design with proof.  You can see that it has a reasonable polar response for a FRer and with the right filter could be made to sound good.  Guessing on high output impedance effects or unique baffle shapes seems to be far more time consuming and doubtfully as accurate as just using a design that's known to work.  There's an old expression,"give a monkey a typewriter and eventually it will recreate the entire works of Shakespeare." 

I don't want to be the monkey,

Dan


 

[mcgsxr]

Interesting perspective Dan, appreciate your sharing it - and in a civil manner, which is perfect.

In dramatic opposition, I don't mind being the monkey I guess.  I bought these drivers on the recommendation of someone I trust, and have taken the time to play around with them to optimize (to my ears, in my room) their abilities.  A couple of baffle changes (first were flat, then came the wings, then came the bass drivers), and a series of amps later (roughly 6-7), and I have arrived at a system that remains largely unchanged 4 years later.

I completely understand that some others approach this hobby or DIY from an opposing direction (largely objective), and as far as I am concerned, there is plenty of room for subjectivists like myself - both offer valid opinions, and both guide others through their own journey of discovery in DIY.

I recognize that my own approach is often seen as less valid - certainly it is less scientific - but I am fine with that - I build this system to please me - it is not a commercial offering, I don't need to justify it to anyone etc.

If my disinterest in measuring leads some to believe that my ears are no good, I can live with that too - all that I have demo'd my system for have heard aspects of what I hear - and many have offered criticism (mostly constructive thankfully!).  That is cool with me too.

I have helped design 2 ways with friends, and have measured them in the process, and am quite comfortable designing by ear for myself.

I am very open that I am a subjective wingnut, and I am very comfortable that in some ways that will render my opinion useless to those more interested in objective proof over experience.

My opinion is simply one datapoint among many, and folks hopefully treat it that way, when they embark on their own journey.

I value your insights and inputs as another data point along the way.

Glad you are sharing, and thanks for participating, it makes all sides of the equation come alive for others, as they struggle along with different projects they undertake.

Perhaps in time someone else will measure their own design, and produce graphs associated with them, and then some other will consider these drivers for a project of their own.

They are not perfect, but I cannot afford perfect!

Could they be optimized through an objective measuring and tweaking session or a series of them?  Potentially, but I am highly unmotivated to undertake such an exercise, as I personally like what I hear without any such "proof".

Could just be the old violinist in me, that played by ear for 7 years (up to the 7th grade conservatory level) without being able to read music.  Learning to read music enabled me to get to the 9th level, but I don't think it made me a better player - it just helped me learn faster - so, the old pig headed kid still lives on!

I don't want it to seem like I take a perverse pride in not measuring - I know they are not perfect, I can hear the things that they cannot do really well - but for me, at this time, that is a compromise I can live with.

Happy experimenting all!

[rjbond3rd]

I think El`Ol has the best idea for B200 users who don't or can't measure--use what Visaton recommends or a design with proof.  You can see that it has a reasonable polar response for a FRer and with the right filter could be made to sound good. 

I would agree that it could be made flat, and flat is often (usually?) better than "not flat," but does flat == good?

I went to a high-end audio store last week, and heard speakers from $8k to $60k.  Each was in its own room, and set up to perfection.  All but one was extremely impressive in one or another way.

And no doubt they were all decently engineered and "flatter" than any DIY design is likely to be.  But no speaker sounded like any other, and one of the most expensive was just as dead and dull as anything I've ever heard.

All of them lacked the dynamics of horns (which are not always the flattest speakers in the world).

So while flat may be better than non-flat, in my experience, flat is not nearly enough to be good.  And some non-flat speakers really can sound great.  Anyway, the B200 can sound great too, and it's incredibly easy to flatten the response, just by positioning if that's what's available.

[opnly bafld]

I don't want to be the monkey,

Dan

Too late.

Lin 

[DanTheMan]

Too late.

Lin 

Noted and appreciated Lin.

Oh, one more thing, my horn system is the flattest I've measured, but I've seen even better measurements of horn systems than mine.

Good luck on the speakers.  Hopefully we'll get to see some pics.

Dan