[Marbles]

AFAIC, the only "don't critisize" is when one manufacturer critisizes another or their product.

Other than that, as long as the critisism is done in a respectful manner then there is no problem.

Nathan expressed his opinion.  You are free to agree with it or not, but without disagreement this place would get pretty boring.


*Edited to get the right poster  

[doug s.]

hi marbles,

among other tings (which i agree with, btw), ya said:
"...Pyschicanimal expressed his opinion..."

which thread are ya reading?  the psychic hasn't posted to this one, afaik.  or, mebbe he has a "psychic" tie, direct to you?  

regards,

doug s.

[audiojerry]

Hey Nathan,
You'd better not stop commenting - your posts have been very entertaining. Although sometimes your style can't help but rancor some readers. Your comment:

If we are supposed to sit around and accept every single bit of marketing blather  

... could easily be taken as offensive by Kevin W., who I believe was just trying to offer an honest view. I don't want to discourage new mfg. direct or dealer direct participants from contributing to this forum.

If we piss them off, they might say 'Bye bye, I don't need this kind of abuse.' The result could mean fewer resources for us to tap into. I see nothing wrong with disagreeing, but I'd rather treat the dealers and mfg'rs a little more gently. If we get hit with some obvious marketing hype, it's understandable, and we all have enough reasoning power to determine if we are reading propanda or useful info.

Who knows, if Kevin is so proud of his system and what he recommends, he might even offer to send out samples for us to audition, like Danny did.   That's one of the advantages I would like this forum to be able to provide - a connection between users and mfg'rs with opportunities to sample new and affordable products that may not be available via the mainstream.  

[Marbles]

hi marbles,

among other tings (which i agree with, btw), ya said:
"...Pyschicanimal expressed his opinion..."

which thread are ya reading?  the psychic hasn't posted to this one, afaik.  or, mebbe he has a "psychic" tie, direct to you?  

regards,

doug s.

OOOPS, my mistake, I meant Nathan    

[Mathew_M]

Ok, time to criticize the moderators....this topic is waaaaayyyyy off course and should either be moved or closed.  To keep a semblance of order, dealers should only post their systems in the 'Systems' gallery and keep it at that.  I think Marbles was trying to point that out.

Of course dealers are going to be biased and debates will ensue.  The thing is that being a dealer and being here means that you are most likely trying to sell your product.  Therefore topics like "my $330 cable is a bargain compared brand xYz..." should be born and stay within the dealers own forum or topic (preferably forum).

[nathanm]

Jerry: Kevin already said he was not offended by my post.  I pre-apologized for my comments in the original reply.  Kevin also alluded to his own "marketing blather" (my words, not his) by stating:

Heh, I have to laugh at myself a little bit. My use of the above marketing adjectives and phrases (e.g. "best value around") is exactly what used to elicit skepticism in myself.

So that's what made me feel he wouldn't be all ticked off about what I wrote because he demonstrated a sense of humor right there.  But I did not use the term "marketing blather" to refer to anyone in particular, but rather any manner of sales pitch used by anyone.  I agree that we don't want to scare away vendors, but I also feel that end users have to communicate with them and keep their heads level.  

---stop reading now - grossly off-topic!---

[rant]How the heck this industry ended up selling everybody overpriced copper is beyond me.  I was just browsing a Music Direct catalog.  There's a fucking $7300 power cord in there!  That's what I paid for my used 1994 Geo Prism fer cripes sakes.  What the holy hell is going on?  And being a millionaire still doesn't mean a thousand dollar bundle of wires is a 'good value' by any stretch of the imagination.  Are there even thousand dollar 1meter long wires in the Space Shuttle I wonder?[/rant]

---you may continue reading now---

Anyway, Matthew M is right, this has gone on way too far and it's all my fault.  I'm sorry for starting a cable war.  So grab a whip, the line forms to the left.  I'll be the one wearing the sack cloth.  Flagellate away!  

[KevinW]

Nathan,
Great post!  Thanks for keeping it all real, and you are quite right in your assessment of my interpretation.  I'm also not offended by the people who claimed I my original system was a "budget" system, and then blasted me for inlcluding a $330 cable.  I never said it was budget (see quote below), but rather that it was GOOD.  This is how these chat forums work sometimes... misinterpretations abound.  But a level head can rise above the chaos, whereas quick reactions breed infinitely more chaos.

I think it is going to be an interesting journey, as I cross over to the "other" side of dealer/consumer equation.  I have some novel ideas that may impress even the most jaded chatroom veteran.  I need to get my website up first before I say any more.

And yes, I would be willing to send out a demo pair or two of cables.  More on that later...

I am actually a dealer now, so I'll post my system.  The synergy is really quite good with the following:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems

All my cables are Jena Labs, which are the most detailed and natural sounding cables I have heard.  For $330/pair 1m,  these cables are excellent value.  When I get my website up, I'll explain what is so great about these cables.  These cables also come in the a kit version for $165.
Solar HiFi

[audiojerry]

See what I mean, Nathan!    
I had a hunch Kevin was gonna be an ok guy!    
looking forward to hearing more from Kevin in the future.

[audioengr]

You would be surprised how much of your dollar spent on expensive highly-advertised cables that are carried in lots of salons actually goes towards the labor and materials of building that cable.  Probably averages around 10-20%.  The rest is cost of sales in the form of offices, warehousing, marketing, advertising, legal fees, research, distribution margins and finally dealer margins, advertising probably being the lions share in most cases.  It's no surprise that a cable that costs $400 to build (labor and materials) is actually priced at $5K.

I just shake my head in disbelief when I read people debate the goodness of kilobuck cables that they see in Stereophile, while ignoring the little guys that have products just as good or better, with none of the overheads mentioned above in their prices.  I believe that somehow they must feel more comfortable making this decision if the product is advertised in glossy color in Stereophile and sells for kilobux.  It must be good.....