Right Tube Combination-Finally!

I.Greyhound Fan · « **on:** 17 Mar 2010, 08:59 pm »

Ok, I know this subject has been beaten to death, but I thought I would post my recent experience in tube rolling in my Ultra preamp and Ultra DAC in hope's that I may help others.

I recently upgraded the DAC with Burr Brown Op amps which improved the over all resolution and clarity but moved the midrange too forward, and presented a smaller sound stage with less air, so I went about rolling the standard 6n1P tubes for a pair of Mazda 6CG7 tubes. The Mazda tubes drastically changed the sound mostly for the better. I initially tried them in the DAC. There was more air, wider sound stage and deeper, faster bass. There was more depth to the music and an overall warmer, more tube sound. Vocals were smooth and liquid. Cymbals seemed a tad rolled off and slightly congested however. The midrange also sound a tad congested.

I then put the Madza tubes in the preamp and put the 6N1P tubes back in the DAC. Oddly, the sound stage decreased a little and some of the air disappeared. The sound was much warmer with deeper bass and treble and cymbals sounded clearer and snappier. However, I felt that the overall sound was too warm and the bass exagerated.

Next, I ordered a pair of Electro Harmonix 6CG7 tubes which were matched and balanced and check for microphnics for $46 from tube depot. I placed them in the DAC and the preamp ran with the 6N1P tubes. The sound was light, airy with a huge sound stage and a pushed back midrange. Bass was improved compared to the standard 6N1P tubes. Vocals were less smooth and a little edgy. I also tried the EH tubes in the preamp with the Mazda tubes in the DAC and the sound was too light and it just wan't a good combo.

I finally hit the jackpot when I placed the Mazda tubes in the preamp and the new EH 6CG7 tubes in the DAC. Now I had good air and transparency with a wide sound stage, crisp clear treble, and deep punchy bass. (although, drums and conga's had more punch with the Mazda's in the DAC). The midrange was just right, vocals were smooth but not quite as smooth and liquid as when the Mazda's were in the DAC, but I can live with it. Over all I am very pleased with the sound.

Eventually, I am going to try a pair of the NOS RCA 6CG7's in the DAC in the never ending quest for audio nirvana!

John151 · « **Reply #1 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 09:22 pm »

I just went thru a very similar excercise, with very similar results (except with an EE DAC and a Candela PreAmp). I too found a Mazda to be a good tube, but lacking the magic I was looking for. I came to the conclusion that the Mazda was a very SS sounding tube (no real faults, just lacking magic). I ended up with NOS RCA 12AU7's in the Candela, and a Dario MiniWatt 12AU7 in the EE DAC, and found that to be a magical combination. I have more RCAs on order so I can try 3 RCAs.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #2 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 09:35 pm »

My speakers are Magnepan 1.6's, my amp is a Parasound Halo A21 and I found the Mazda's to have the most bass and warmth and the EH's to be on the bright side but with more air, transparency and wider sound stage. The EH's are supposed to be exact copies of the old RCA 6CG7's, however I've been told and have also read that the RCA's present a warmer sound than the new EH's and that Marantz gear from the 1960's and early 70's used the RCA's which helped give that classic warm Marantz sound.

I'm looking forward to swapping them out with the EH's and hearing the difference. Of course after all this, I just may have to give Franks new Vision DAC or Preamp a listen.

martyo · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 Mar 2010, 11:11 pm »

Very nice write-up IGF.

I would have liked the Rca Clear tops to have the characteristics you describe for them but they don't sound like that over here.

Sent you a pm.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #4 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 01:18 am »

Do you think the RCA clear tops will sound the same as the RCA black plate tubes? What about the 6CG7 Mullards? I've also located a 4 Sylvania 6CG7's from the 1950's. These are supposed to be a warm sounding tube with air.

martyo · « **Reply #5 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 08:33 am »

I don't have a clue. Those Sylvanias sound interesting.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #6 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 07:32 pm »

The reason that I did not initially replace all 4 tubes was that I initially bought the Mazda 6CG7 tubes which cost $80 a pair plus shipping. I wanted to at least make sure that I liked the sound of them before buying a second pair and wasting $170 if I did not like them.

I'm actually going to buy another 3 pair of the Mazda's to have spares and to try pairing 4 together. They are a rare tube and probably won't be around that much longer.

As far as the EH's are concerned, I did not find them to be more musical than the 6n1p tubes as Frank has claimed. (the Mazda's are a very musical tube with a warm, rich sound with a lot of depth and deeper bass but not quite as much air and separation of instruments in the midrange) But I'm not using a Van Alstine power amp and don't have the Salk HTR-3 speakers like Frank does. I think its all about system matching. I found the EH's difficult to listen too when placed in the preamp or placed in the DAC with the 6N1P's in the preamp. The sound was way too bright and irritating.

I would like to hear from any one that has compared the sound of the RCA clear tops to the EH tubes to know if the RCA's are a little warmer. I would also be interested in the sound of the Mullards.

martyo · « **Reply #7 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 08:01 pm »

I'm using both the current EH and the Rca clear tops. The answer to your question is somewhat, but I'm talking about more body/fuller, not warmth. The sibilants with the RCA's are my issue, too ssssibilantssssss. 2 clear tops are fine, 4 are not good over here.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #8 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 10:04 pm »

Martyo, so do you find that the RCA's are fuller than the EH's? I found the EH's to be thin and airy with a very wide sound stage and pushed back midrange. They totally compensated for the narrow sound stage and forward midrange that the Burr Brown op amps presented.

martyo · « **Reply #9 on:** 18 Mar 2010, 11:21 pm »

Quote from: I.Greyhound Fan on 18 Mar 2010, 10:04 pm

Martyo, so do you find that the RCA's are fuller than the EH's? I found the EH's to be thin and airy with a very wide sound stage and pushed back midrange. They totally compensated for the narrow sound stage and forward midrange that the Burr Brown op amps presented.

Yes, the Rca's are fuller than the EH's, but I don't hear the EH's as thin at all. The EH's are more linear than the RCA's too. The big differences with soundstage and depth that you are experiencing, even with the BB op amps, are different than mine. The front to back improved with the op amp change here, and I haven't noticed any L-R shrinkage (

Seinfeld) with any of the changes. My L-R extended well beyond the speakers before the op amps and still does. Of course, it's all recording dependant. My brother sometimes says it is too wide.

With all the subjective terms we use describing what we hear I always hope we all are understanding each other. My offer w/RCA's still stands, but I don't think they are what you're describing you are looking for. Truth is that when I get motivated enough I've been thinking my next move will be to get another pair of the EH's and listen to 4 of 'em. I think guitar players probably love these clear tops.
If the Mazdas pop up again I would give them a try based on yours and others posts

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #10 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 02:11 am »

Martyo, I just ordered another pair of the Mazda's. When they come in, maybe we can swap the EH and RCA's for an audition. By the way, are you using an VA amp?

By the way, the dude at Upscale Audio thinks that the Mazda tubes are the best sounding 6CG7 tubes that were made.

martyo · « **Reply #11 on:** 19 Mar 2010, 08:31 am »

Quote from: I.Greyhound Fan on 19 Mar 2010, 02:11 am

Martyo, I just ordered another pair of the Mazda's. When they come in, maybe we can swap the EH and RCA's for an audition. By the way, are you using an VA amp?

By the way, the dude at Upscale Audio thinks that the Mazda tubes are the best sounding 6CG7 tubes that were made.

Double Ultra 550(w/Nos '67 Telefunken ECC801s) and the T8 and Ultra DAC.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #12 on:** 31 Mar 2010, 07:38 pm »

Another update on tubes. I bought a 2nd pair of the Mazda 6CG7's and they have too pronounced bass and are overly warm when all 4 tubes are paired together in the preamp and DAC. Cymbals are pushed back as well. I think that the Mazda's pair well with other tubes and will be the ones that I use in the preamp.

I came across some NOS Sylvania gray plate 6CG7's with the halo getter here locally and bought a matched pair for $23. They are from the 1960's and have the yellow lettering with the Sylvania logo with the lightening bolt. They have a neutral sound with a hint of warmth. They are much better sounding than the EH's. Not as tinny sounding and there is more fullness to the sound. Very little sibilance compared to the EH's. I'm running them in my DAC with the Mazda's in the preamp. I'll swap them when I have about 15-20hrs on them. If any one is interested, I can give you the link to the store here in St. Paul.

I've become curious and interested in tube rolling just to see whats out there. I'm quite amazed at how different these tubes sound. I'm also going to try some RCA Black Plates and Raytheon Black Plates from the 1950's or 60's as well as some Tung Sol's from the 60's if I can find them.

martyo · « **Reply #13 on:** 24 Apr 2010, 12:04 pm »

I was late with the Mazda/Brimar's but I finally popped for a pair and really like them. I'm running the same as "I.Greyhound Fan " with the M/B in the T8 and the EH in the Ultra DAC. I have another pair on order..............

ArthurDent · « **Reply #14 on:** 24 Apr 2010, 12:51 pm »

Quote from: martyo on 24 Apr 2010, 12:04 pm

I was late with the Mazda/Brimar's but I finally popped for a pair and really like them. I'm running the same as "I.Greyhound Fan " with the M/B in the T8 and the EH in the Ultra DAC. I have another pair on order..............

Thanks for the update. Last I looked the Mazdas were nowhere to be found. Thanks to IGF as well for the review. Will have to give your setups a check, as soon as I do some searching for the EH's.

martyo · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 Apr 2010, 02:55 pm »

Thanks for the reminder, I just updated the systems page.

I.Greyhound Fan · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Apr 2010, 04:55 am »

Glad you like the Mazda's Martyo! I'd be interested in taking you up on the offer of those NOS 6N1P Sovtek's once I get my amp back from Parasound.

martyo · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Apr 2010, 08:25 am »

IGF, pm me your address when you're ready. I'll send along a pair of the clear tops too just in case system synergy..........

martyo · « **Reply #18 on:** 19 May 2010, 04:52 pm »

Quote from: ArthurDent on 24 Apr 2010, 12:51 pm

Thanks for the update. Last I looked the Mazdas were nowhere to be found. Thanks to IGF as well for the review. Will have to give your setups a check, as soon as I do some searching for the EH's.

So what do you think of the Mazda's?

Vulcan00 · « **Reply #19 on:** 19 May 2010, 07:24 pm »

The Mazda have been my top choice until:::

I recently took a chance on a vender overseas on 4 different matched pairs of NOS tubes.

I have been stunned

on the first two sets I have tried:

Tesla goldpin military grade E88CC
Philips ECC88 6DJ8

These are very clear sounding with a Smooth, 3-D sounding midrange.

Have ya’ll tried these??

Harrison