B&W Diamonds

john1970 · « **Reply #20 on:** 11 Apr 2011, 10:31 am »

Quote from: redbook on 11 Apr 2011, 03:20 am

I have always respected a company that make their own transducers, ect.

I second that opinion especially when one also considers that B&W has an extensive R&D and engineering.

Best,

John

dspgolf · « **Reply #21 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 07:48 pm »

Hello,

I have a pair of B&W 803D speakers powered by a 4B SST2 amp and BP 26P preamp and I think it sounds great! I had previously been using a 4b st amp but upgraded several months ago to the newest model. It has made a huge difference in sound stage, imaging, and overall smoothness with out sacrificing definition or bass articulation. I'm loving this setup and feel Bryston and B&W have an excellent synergy together! Does anyone know or have they heard the newest series and is there a major improvement? Just curious..

David

1oldguy · « **Reply #22 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 07:54 pm »

Quote from: dspgolf on 14 Apr 2011, 07:48 pm

Hello,

I have a pair of B&W 803D speakers powered by a 4B SST2 amp and BP 26P preamp and I think it sounds great! I had previously been using a 4b st amp but upgraded several months ago to the newest model. It has made a huge difference in sound stage, imaging, and overall smoothness with out sacrificing definition or bass articulation. I'm loving this setup and feel Bryston and B&W have an excellent synergy together! Does anyone know or have they heard the newest series and is there a major improvement? Just curious..

David

Curious about this myself.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #23 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 08:18 pm »

I believe that with the premium B&Ws much of what you are paying for is exotic cosmetics, because they know this sells - and they are right. The cheapest models of B&W offer reasonable value, and in my experience can produce reasonably accurate bass, but too often B&W does not seem to have a handle on great bass reproduction, any more than most manufacturers.

I sold my 805s years ago because the bass was unusable to me, insofar as I could not make valid EQ judgements on them - they were too colored (read "one note"). At the same time, Abbey Road studios was using them, so even the big guys are susceptible to hype, I guess.

As to the notion that a speaker manufacturer making its own drivers is something you can take comfort in, well it has been argued that Dynaudio makes great drivers but can't make a great crossover and, as a result, some of the best performing speakers using Dynaudio drivers were made by other manufacturers. I think it is reasonable to believe that crossover design, not to speak of speaker design in the larger sense, employs a completely different set of skills than transducer design.

vegasdave · « **Reply #24 on:** 15 Apr 2011, 01:32 am »

Food for thought there.

budt · « **Reply #25 on:** 15 Apr 2011, 02:31 am »

The problem with good speakers, electronics etc is that most people don't take the time and effort to make them sing. B&W has top notch engineers and put a lot of effort and money into R&D. Some people just can't stand successful companies and kick the crap out of B&W, Wilson,Theil, Bryston, Krell etc etc, all of which make a very good product. In regards to the 805S , I would hardly consider that speaker a serious effort on B&W's part.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #26 on:** 15 Apr 2011, 02:50 am »

I would think any self respecting company would put the same "serious effort" into every one of their models.

The B&W 805 was sold (and used, as I said, by Abbey Road Studios) as a near field monitor. The 801 was sold on the basis that it was used as a reference by a high percentage of classical recording studios in Europe at the time. The 800 series was represented as reference quality, top to bottom. In fact, though, the 805 boomed, and the 803 boomed even worse in the bass. One review at the time described it as having a "disco bass". To my mind this just demonstrated incompetence on the part of B&W, and I expected better. Admittedly, few designers get bass right to my ears. Some that have include Fried, Snell, Bag End and Clements.

Maybe B&W has cleaned up their act since, but at the time I resented spending that kind of money and being that disappointed. Since then I have become wiser in the ways of marketing and see B&W in a different light - like W**son and K**ll!

budt · « **Reply #27 on:** 15 Apr 2011, 03:13 am »

Quote from: Russell Dawkins on 15 Apr 2011, 02:50 am

I would think any self respecting company would put the same "serious effort" into every one of their models.

The B&W 805 was sold (and used, as I said, by Abbey Road Studios) as a near field monitor. The 801 was sold on the basis that it was used as a reference by a high percentage of classical recording studios in Europe at the time. The 800 series was represented as reference quality, top to bottom. In fact, though, the 805 boomed, and the 803 boomed even worse in the bass. One review at the time described it as having a "disco bass". To my mind this just demonstrated incompetence on the part of B&W, and I expected better. Admittedly, few designers get bass right to my ears. Some that have include Fried, Snell, Bag End and Clements.

Maybe B&W has cleaned up their act since, but at the time I resented spending that kind of money and being that disappointed. Since then I have become wiser in the ways of marketing and see B&W in a different light - like W**son and K**ll!

I had all those speaker you mentioned and NON were boomy once placed properly and/or the room was treated. The only B&W I ever had that was boomy was the 802D and I contacted B&W and complained about it. The new diamond series does not exhibit this.

budt · « **Reply #28 on:** 15 Apr 2011, 03:20 am »

If you want a speaker with out all the fuss I would highly recommend the Orion by Linkwitz labs.

cujobob · « **Reply #29 on:** 15 Apr 2011, 03:25 am »

Hardly consider a speaker a serious effort? I wouldn't buy speakers from a company that was willing to put out a product they weren't proud of.

R&D from big companies is totally overblown IMHO...as is the idea that making your own transducers means your speakers are automatically better. In fact, that can be worse when you need a replacement, sometimes. Danny Richie, of GR-Research has had his own drivers built for him for years...not by his own factory or anything like that, but they were built to his specs/standards, individually tested, and have shown to be extremely reliable. Some of the best speakers around use readily available drivers....Accuton...RAAL... very nice stuff.

Back to R&D...well , let's face it... R&D is everything, but a bigger R&D budget doesn't always equate to better quality. Look at the work individuals such as Linkwitz and Geddes do...

budt · « **Reply #30 on:** 15 Apr 2011, 03:34 am »

Quote from: cujobob on 15 Apr 2011, 03:25 am

Hardly consider a speaker a serious effort? I wouldn't buy speakers from a company that was willing to put out a product they weren't proud of.

R&D from big companies is totally overblown IMHO...as is the idea that making your own transducers means your speakers are automatically better. In fact, that can be worse when you need a replacement, sometimes. Danny Richie, of GR-Research has had his own drivers built for him for years...not by his own factory or anything like that, but they were built to his specs/standards, individually tested, and have shown to be extremely reliable. Some of the best speakers around use readily available drivers....Accuton...RAAL... very nice stuff.

Back to R&D...well , let's face it... R&D is everything, but a bigger R&D budget doesn't always equate to better quality. Look at the work individuals such as Linkwitz and Geddes do...

Mr. Linkwitz has put a lot of R&D into his speakers. If he had been paid by the hour to develope the Orions I bet it would be a fairly hefty figure.

bummrush · « **Reply #31 on:** 15 Apr 2011, 03:37 am »

Some that have include Fried, Snell, Bag End and Clements. Gotta love that crowd

tesseract · « **Reply #32 on:** 15 Apr 2011, 01:28 pm »

Quote from: budt on 15 Apr 2011, 02:31 am

The problem with good speakers, electronics etc is that most people don't take the time and effort to make them sing. B&W has top notch engineers and put a lot of effort and money into R&D. Some people just can't stand successful companies and kick the crap out of B&W, Wilson,Theil, Bryston, Krell etc etc, all of which make a very good product.

Correct, budt.

Most people that have issues with B&W mention the bass bloom. They do tend to have that characteristic. It takes time and effort to place these guys, but once you get a lock with the room, you get to hear what they can do.

Others mention the highs as being excessive. B&W's are very picky about toe in, it also takes a bit of care to get this right.

Also, their first order crossovers makes for a ragged off axis response, so first reflection absorption is needed. This is the penalty you pay for the phase correct on axis response. As with anything, you pick your compromises.

These issues are valid complaints, but are remedied with proper setup.

Quote

In regards to the 805S , I would hardly consider that speaker a serious effort on B&W's part.

People latched on to this statement.

Could you qualify this for me, budt?

Phil A · « **Reply #33 on:** 15 Apr 2011, 01:47 pm »

B&W as noted throughout the thread makes a lot of models. My old P6s (slim towers) actually are great wherever I have had them for bass. They start to roll off in the mid 30Hz range and whatever I have had driving them over the years sounds pretty good (right now an Onkyo 1000 in the secondary basement system). Some of the older 801s do have that bass bloom with the big woofer and I have heard it in several systems.

tesseract · « **Reply #34 on:** 15 Apr 2011, 01:55 pm »

Quote from: cujobob on 15 Apr 2011, 03:25 am

Hardly consider a speaker a serious effort? I wouldn't buy speakers from a company that was willing to put out a product they weren't proud of.

Cujobob,

The idea that B&W isn't proud of the 805S has no teeth, it is just a statement in a forum IMO.

Quote

R&D from big companies is totally overblown IMHO...as is the idea that making your own transducers means your speakers are automatically better. In fact, that can be worse when you need a replacement, sometimes. Danny Richie, of GR-Research has had his own drivers built for him for years...not by his own factory or anything like that, but they were built to his specs/standards, individually tested, and have shown to be extremely reliable. Some of the best speakers around use readily available drivers....Accuton...RAAL... very nice stuff.

There are a lot of hidden attributes that have come about as a result of B&W's R&D. The Nautilus tweeter tube, textured baffles to offset diffraction, shaped driver baskets to avoid reflecting the sound back through the cone, absolutely wonderfully dead enclosures. These are but a very few.

Yes, a lot of any company's techno-speak is marketing, but let's not lose sight of real, worthwhile achievements.

Quote

Back to R&D...well , let's face it... R&D is everything, but a bigger R&D budget doesn't always equate to better quality. Look at the work individuals such as Linkwitz and Geddes do...

Lots of respect for these individuals, there is more than one way to skin a cat. As you know, I am going to give Danny's work a try. I can't afford Linkwitz or Geddes, but would love to hear them.

tesseract · « **Reply #35 on:** 15 Apr 2011, 02:04 pm »

Quote from: Phil A on 15 Apr 2011, 01:47 pm

B&W as noted throughout the thread makes a lot of models. My old P6s (slim towers) actually are great wherever I have had them for bass. They start to roll off in the mid 30Hz range and whatever I have had driving them over the years sounds pretty good (right now an Onkyo 1000 in the secondary basement system). Some of the older 801s do have that bass bloom with the big woofer and I have heard it in several systems.

My latest B&W's are a modest pair of 602S3's. Admittedly, these are the weakest (and least expensive) link in my system right now. I have been upgrading up everything else around them, soon their time will be up. But I digress.

I just measured this yesterday, those little 7" drivers are down only 3db at 31.5hz at the listening position in my room. Can't place these too close to any boundary or the midbass is bloated. That has been my experience with almost all of their stand mounts. One exception is the DM303, a really great little speaker for the money, BTW.

vegasdave · « **Reply #36 on:** 17 Apr 2011, 01:50 am »

I liked the old 801 Matrixes quite a bit. I should have bought them, but I bought something else (Apogees) which were a nightmare! I haven't heard the D or Nautilus series. How do they compare? And are they better than the old Matrix series?

budt · « **Reply #37 on:** 17 Apr 2011, 02:06 am »

Quote from: vegasdave on 17 Apr 2011, 01:50 am

I liked the old 801 Matrixes quite a bit. I should have bought them, but I bought something else (Apogees) which were a nightmare! I haven't heard the D or Nautilus series. How do they compare? And are they better than the old Matrix series?

The Apogees are one of the finest speakers I ever heard. The MAtrix 801 series 3 is better than the N or "D" series but the latest diamond series are simply superb( imo), ymmv.
If given the proper room and setup the matrix 801 series 3 is a very good speaker without any bass bloat whatsoever(I bet most have never heard them properly setup).It takes about a 30-40 foot long room to really show what the the 801 III are capable of.

skunark · « **Reply #38 on:** 17 Apr 2011, 07:25 am »

I've heard the 802 diamonds and the 803 diamonds and I can't get past the lack of low frequency these speakers have compared to PMC, ProAc and Aerial Acoustics. I've only auditioned them at two different dealers looking for other gear, but walked away disappointed in them. I've owned the 602s and 704s and always enjoyed them but not surprisingly had the same thought. I've also been looking for speakers without metal tweeters, but either ribbon or soft dome tweeters as I've been finding the metal ones a bit harsh for my ears. I think for the money you can do better, but even though I found them a bit disappointing, I don't think you could go wrong with them. To date, i'm after the cheapest speaker that sound like the Aerial Acoustics V20T, just amazing with just 7B SST2.

vegasdave · « **Reply #39 on:** 18 Apr 2011, 12:28 am »

Quote from: budt on 17 Apr 2011, 02:06 am

The Apogees are one of the finest speakers I ever heard. The MAtrix 801 series 3 is better than the N or "D" series but the latest diamond series are simply superb( imo), ymmv.
If given the proper room and setup the matrix 801 series 3 is a very good speaker without any bass bloat whatsoever(I bet most have never heard them properly setup).It takes about a 30-40 foot long room to really show what the the 801 III are capable of.

Well, I had the bottom of the line Stages. I kept blowing the ribbon tweeter when I just turned it up half way. Then one of the woofer panels went. My amp at the time was the Mark Levinson No. 23. Plenty of power for the Apogees. So, I literally took them to the curb and had them hauled away. It's true. I didn't even bother to sell them. Too much hassle!

As far as the 801 Matrixes go, yes they are a good speaker. However, it is my understanding that B&W has no more parts and drivers for the 801 Matrix. On the other hand, they are a good value on the used market.

Decisions, decisions. Anyway, I'm dead set on the bigger ATC towers. But, those are very expensive.