[Daedalus Audio]

We need to move away from gas or diesel entirely, toward a fully electric car.  Then we can dump our oil needs, and plug into the grid.  Of course, said grid can be nuclear powered. 

I've never understood, why do people feel the need "performance" in a car?  WTF, are you out on a racing track or something?  Cars are for transport, only.  If you are "pushing" your car, you are driving recklessly, and you are putting other people in danger.  The only worse thing you could do would to be drunk while you did it.

ok, I've gotta run with this....
I don't see fully electric cars as any help since the energy still comes from fossil fuels and can be even more polluting than your tailpipe! as for nuclear sure if we go full out changing our grid to ALL or even most nuclear & hydro we should be ready to go by..... maybe..... 2060? of course if we don't change our driving culture by then we still won't meet demand with that and will have to burn coal to do it.
imo, electric cars represent a search for a silver bullet to solve our problems rather than getting down to the tough issues.  btw I'm not some holier than though type, I have a bigger carbon footprint than I would care to own up to, I just think we have to look at changing our lifestyle / culture and lowering demand as well as looking at new technologies and resources.

[macrojack]

Lou is right. We need to look at patching our boat rather than depending on technology to provide us with ever-faster bailing machines. Shorter commutes or, better yet, no commute would be a big help. Regional sourcing for our needs rather than centralized sources hauling everything over long distances.
Recently in the NYT editorials someone questioned why we don't do some things more like Europe or Canada and the answer really got me thinking.
Canada is a society where we are a marketplace.
Before any of you tell me to move to Canada, consider the deeper implications of that observation. It explains why we don't have diesel cars and 60 mpg. And lots of other things better left to other websites.

[brj]

Guys, while interesting, I don't think this is going to help the OP find a wagon in the immediate future...

[Daedalus Audio]

always good to discuss these things... we can all help educate each other.  our future depends on it.

btw thanks MJ


lou

[brj]

I don't disagree at all.  It would probably just be more helpful to the OP to do so in another thread.

[macrojack]

At this point, unless one of us has something to sell him, the topic has been pretty well exhausted. Are there any station wagons that have not been recommended?
I have a 2004 Matrix XR that I am not selling. Depending on what you have to haul, it might be large enough for your purposes. It is the chassis and drive train from a Toyota Corolla with a 5 door body. The back seats fold flat and the passenger seat in the front folds forward. In this position, you can carry 8 foot long 2 x 4s with all doors and windows closed. Or a surfboard. I was able to carry my son's mountain bike inside.
It isn't fast or slow and it handles pretty well though not like a Euro racer. Gas mileage is between 29 and 35 depending on how and where you drive.
It also has a million stowage compartments and both 12 volt and 110 outlets. Mine is front wheel drive but an AWD is available.
The XRS model I recommended the other day puts out 180 hp compared to my 130 from the same motor. Toyota hired Yamaha to hotrod it for the Celica GT and this car. It's much sportier if you want or need that. 5 to 6 year old models with under 100,000 miles can be found under $10K.

[Tyson]

ok, I've gotta run with this....
I don't see fully electric cars as any help since the energy still comes from fossil fuels and can be even more polluting than your tailpipe! as for nuclear sure if we go full out changing our grid to ALL or even most nuclear & hydro we should be ready to go by..... maybe..... 2060? of course if we don't change our driving culture by then we still won't meet demand with that and will have to burn coal to do it.
imo, electric cars represent a search for a silver bullet to solve our problems rather than getting down to the tough issues.  btw I'm not some holier than though type, I have a bigger carbon footprint than I would care to own up to, I just think we have to look at changing our lifestyle / culture and lowering demand as well as looking at new technologies and resources.

That's why I specified that the grid needs to convert to nuclear power.

[shadowlight]

I am partial to Subaru.  I own a 1998 Legacy Sedan with 140K, with normal maintenance and plan to drive it until it rusts away .  I still get around 25 mpg in mixed driving mode (rated by epa for 24city/28highway).  Take a look at used Subaru Forrester which will be roomier than Imprenza (sp) but less than the outback.

The last time I had visited a Subaru dealer (~6 months ago) they were mentioning that Subaru is coming out with a diesel and the only thing holding it up was CA emission for automatic.  Manual had passed CA emission requirements.

[Lyndon]

Wagons, baby! Poor drphoto, I do think we have given him some of the best avenues to follow for a present wagon, but after Robin's Mopar Magnum, which actually looks like they took a van frame and chopped off the top to convert it to a wagon... how about another classic from the past!
With this one, drphoto, with the 4-4-2 pack, you could get maybe 12 mpg of high octane fuel!
But your kids would be stretchin' to peer out of those green glass windows on the roof.  Kind of reminds me of the touring Amtrak trains.

[thunderbrick]

Wagons, baby! Poor drphoto, I do think we have given him some of the best avenues to follow for a present wagon, but after Robin's Mopar Magnum, which actually looks like they took a van frame and chopped off the top to convert it to a wagon... how about another classic from the past!
With this one, drphoto, with the 4-4-2 pack, you could get maybe 12 mpg of high octane fuel!
But your kids would be stretchin' to peer out of those green glass windows on the roof.  Kind of reminds me of the touring Amtrak trains.


 

My wife thinks I am SERIOUSLY deranged.   

[doug s.]

That's why I specified that the grid needs to convert to nuclear power.

get back to us when there's a way to safely dispose of the waste.   

doug s.

[Lyndon]

Aw, come on boys, stop it, and stick with the steel, eh?

Now don't go off with that Toyota thread and start talking about the gas cap on this honey of a wagon, O.K.???
Portholes were hot back in the 70's, drphoto.  But they were made of plastic, so pretty soon, it was kind
of hard to see through them.  But people in the Econoline Vans didn't want to see through them, ya get my
drift?
They even dropped a Ford British engine in one series called the Pinto MPG, which for the time, actually did get pretty good gas mileage.  But down the road, the mini-wagons of the Japanese were coming, the Corollas, the
Mazda 801, the Rotsun, er Datsun, er Nissans.  Toyota made a very nice little AWD wagon back in the 80's, I think.

[macrojack]

In 1988 Toyota introduced All Trac in the Camry and Corolla. It was full time AWD and nobody bought it so the item got shelved within a few model years.
I have a 1984 Tercel 4WD wagon with 5 speed manual in front wheel drive and 6 speed in 4WD. Not full time, however - must not be engaged on dry surfaces.

[Lyndon]

macrojack said,

I have a 1984 Tercel 4WD wagon with 5 speed manual in front wheel drive and 6 speed in 4WD.

That's the one!  Much sought after out here in Utah. But I would think it would be a little underpowered.
Saw one for sale on Craigslist in Portland, but the guy wanted a ridiculous amount of money.  It was in good shape, but in no way cherry.

[jackman]

If the Pinto's rockin' don't come a knockin'! 

Ouch, you need a leisure suite to drive that baby around.  Pleather seats no doubt.  Doc Photo will need to bust out the polyester and hit the town with the Port-hole Pinto.  Dyn-O-Mite

Aw, come on boys, stop it, and stick with the steel, eh?

Now don't go off with that Toyota thread and start talking about the gas cap on this honey of a wagon, O.K.???
Portholes were hot back in the 70's, drphoto.  But they were made of plastic, so pretty soon, it was kind
of hard to see through them.  But people in the Econoline Vans didn't want to see through them, ya get my
drift?
They even dropped a Ford British engine in one series called the Pinto MPG, which for the time, actually did get pretty good gas mileage.  But down the road, the mini-wagons of the Japanese were coming, the Corollas, the
Mazda 801, the Rotsun, er Datsun, er Nissans.  Toyota made a very nice little AWD wagon back in the 80's, I think.

[macrojack]

macrojack said,
That's the one!  Much sought after out here in Utah. But I would think it would be a little underpowered.
Saw one for sale on Craigslist in Portland, but the guy wanted a ridiculous amount of money.  It was in good shape, but in no way cherry.

Underpowered? It's sporting 62 horsepower.
I'm near Grand Junction, Lyndon. Where are you in Utah?

[Lyndon]

MacroJack,
I'm in Salt Lake, up against the benches of the mighty Wasatch Mountains.

Jackman,
Didn't McIntosh sell stereo leisure suits, that the sound waves would simply pass through for a better listening experience? 



And you don't mean Dyn-O-Mite, but Dolemite, the meanest, toughest SOB who ever walked the streets of
Detroit.  He ate Shaft and Coffy for breakfast! Here he is in the finest polyester, and his HiFi advisers, telling
the Big Man that he can keep his York and Coby brand stereos!

[drphoto]

Hey! OP says it's all good! I love the discussion, keep it going. Don't care if it helps me specifically. (Hell, I'm more confused than ever. I'd love to believe the Saab lovers and get one quite frankly)

And yes, I've long wondered why we don't have a larger offering of clean diesels. If I could afford it, I'd end the whole quest and get the new Jetta clean burn TD.

As far as someone who talked about performance (Tyson?) I don't care about fast. Fun to me is something that tracks like it's on rails. I'd rather flog a sporting car, around on a twisty country road at 30-40 mph than go 120 on the freeway. Hell, my T&C van is fast enough.....

[drphoto]

Hey Jman, if we're gonna get that weird, I'd rather have the Vega wagon! The Pinto's Chevy evil twin. It lacked portholes, but it had those funky shark gill vents on the quarter panel!

Heck, the Cosworth Vega had a DOHC, FI, all aluminum motor, complete w/ a factory header. Pretty radical for the mid 70's. (hatch version though)

[Lyndon]

Though Cosworth made some good stuff.  Those Vega engine blocks...leaked a lot of oil.
My girlfriend bought a Vega...it was one lifeless vehicle.  Her previous car, a Ford Galaxie
500 had a lot more zest!
I have to look around for those Ford Focus Wagons someone mentioned earlier, with a Mazda type
engine.  That sounds interesting.  I also liked the Mazda 3 Wagon, but drphoto may be right that they
don't have enough room, and a friend said that their rear pillar made for a bad blind spot.
Now for your second car, you need one that incorporates a place to dry your beach towels.
Da SuperBird.