[cujobob]

Thanks for unlocking this.

My point was never to offend, but merely provide an opinion which we're all entitled to.  It would get pretty annoying if every statement needed IMHO after it.

Equipment has come such a long way that I don't believe how long one's been listening to stereo systems really matters.  What you hear doesn't tell you what you're missing.  It allows you to 'assume' what is missing...and therein lies a major problem.

Dave, you claimed I was throwing out insults but I'm not aware of any...if you want to take it up via PM, go right ahead.  Every system has limitations of some sort, this is something we can hopefully all admit.  I never said it was wrong to like single driver speakers.  What I said was:  "Can someone enjoy them?  Sure...I don't see any advantages though...unless one were to listen at particular[ly] low volumes."

Enjoy whatever you like.

Regarding tubes...yes, tube rolling can be considered a nice option for many IMO.  People get bored with the same sound of their system and strive for something different and this helps accomplish that.  However, one cannot claim tube amplification is uncolored while also claiming that tube rolling is a virtue IMO because there is no such thing as an uncolored tube.  I like tube amps...I own several that are very good.  Still, I believe spending money on better speakers at the time I purchased, using cheaper equipment, would have been a better upgrade overall.

[rajacat]

Thanks for unlocking this.

My point was never to offend, but merely provide an opinion which we're all entitled to.  It would get pretty annoying if every statement needed IMHO after it.

Equipment has come such a long way that I don't believe how long one's been listening to stereo systems really matters.  What you hear doesn't tell you what you're missing.  It allows you to 'assume' what is missing...and therein lies a major problem.

Dave, you claimed I was throwing out insults but I'm not aware of any...if you want to take it up via PM, go right ahead.  Every system has limitations of some sort, this is something we can hopefully all admit.  I never said it was wrong to like single driver speakers.  What I said was:  "Can someone enjoy them?  Sure...I don't see any advantages though...unless one were to listen at particular[ly] low volumes."

Enjoy whatever you like.

Regarding tubes...yes, tube rolling can be considered a nice option for many IMO.  People get bored with the same sound of their system and strive for something different and this helps accomplish that.  However, one cannot claim tube amplification is uncolored while also claiming that tube rolling is a virtue IMO because there is no such thing as an uncolored tube.  I like tube amps...I own several that are very good.  Still, I believe spending money on better speakers at the time I purchased, using cheaper equipment, would have been a better upgrade overall.

SS gear is colored too! It's very easy to roll some caps to illustrate my point. This myth that SS is not colored is just not true. IMO of course.

-Roy

[cujobob]

I suppose 'less colored' would be the better way to describe it, if one believed high-end caps made an audible difference.  Caps are in tube amps, as well, so that still doesn't negate the fact that tubes change the sound.

About the bigger speakers being better, this is what Dr. Geddes has also found to be true...but it's a tough sale and difficult to mass produce waveguides of an enormous size.

[turkey]

SS gear is colored too! It's very easy to roll some caps to illustrate my point. This myth that SS is not colored is just not true. IMO of course.

-Roy

Any halfway decent SS component has ruler-flat FR and vanishingly low levels of non-linear distortions. Even phono preamps these days are easy to do right. In addition, SS amps have high damping factors so that their FR doesn't vary into typical speaker loads.

All these things are far less true for even the best tube equipment.

[doug s.]

Any halfway decent SS component has ruler-flat FR and vanishingly low levels of non-linear distortions. Even phono preamps these days are easy to do right. In addition, SS amps have high damping factors so that their FR doesn't vary into typical speaker loads.

All these things are far less true for even the best tube equipment.

as has been said before, it is important to use your ears to listen, not yust read "ruler flat" fr, etc, from a spec sheet.  personally, i am a proponent of s/s amps below ~40-80hz or so, for subwoofers.  let tubes do what they do best, and s/s do what it does best...

doug s.

[rajacat]

Yeah but if most SS amp have ruler flat FR, yet they still sound different, then there must be an explanation. I think that the current standard measuring technology doesn't take into consideration some "X" factor that can predict what the amp will actually sound like in a highly sensitive system.
Of course, when the amp is being designed, it's proper to design to a certain standard but the numbers don't tell all. Now if you believe that the numbers are all important then there would no reason to even listen to the device before marketing it. In addition why pay a premium for high end SS gear when an typical AVR also has very impressive numbers and shouldn't sound any different from the high priced spread.

-Roy

[rajacat]

Also when I roll caps, most of the time it's EASY to distinguish the difference in sound despite the caps having similar numbers.ie voltage and capacity. I do roll caps in SS gear too.

-Roy

[cujobob]

Measurements do in fact show anything IMO, but we don't always pay attention to the right measurements.  Crossover distortion is never listed and could be quite important.  Noise is an important aspect obviously, too.

How many of you who are of the 'let your ears decide' standpoint actually blind test-level match equipment for comparison?  Without doing this, you are open to bias...the placebo effect.

Blind comparisons are a bit annoying to perform...and it's the biggest reason we should all demand truth in advertising and a better understanding of how specs correlate to what we hear.  Research properly and you get a better product for your effort.

[rajacat]

So have you blind tested all the gear you currently own?

Really this is just begging the point because in the real world I suspect hardly anybody blind tests components before buying. Also it's very hard to set up a test and have enough participants for it to be stat. sig. Under the pressure of the test maybe your hearing isn't at its best. Your living room is the best place for the test... when you're relaxed maybe with a cigar and Scotch.

In fact, there was a double blind test in which it was determined that most people can't tell the difference between high rez digital and redbook. I sure can tell the diff......in my living room.

-Roy

[cujobob]

Not all blind tests are performed properly so that is something to pay attention to.  However, at home, with all other gear being equal, it is possible to blind test correctly with a friend as long as the method is sound.

My gear is all based on measurements (okay, other than my OB servo sub  ) and I do not claim to use my ears as the deciding factor.  Others have said let your ears decide for you what is best and I disagree with it.  If their ears were really telling them what is best, they should be able to discern the 'better' equipment blind, correct?  This seems like solid reasoning to me.

If the pressure from the test doesn't allow you to discern which gear is better, isn't it likely that the difference in quality is so small that it may not be worth considering?  (in other words, go for cheaper/better value)

I believe that what you hear should correlate with a better design and better measurements.  Make decisions based on those elements and listen for yourself to see if you're happy with what you have.  If not, re-evaluate the process.

I'm all for tweaking, I just cringe a bit when others say something definitely makes an audible improvement without having done a direct comparison.

I enjoy trying out random new gear for fun, I'm guilty of that like anyone else.  It isn't what I'd do to build a great system, though.

[doug s.]

i use measurements as a starting point.  but i like to listen, as well.  in some cases, i might not want to audition something, if the measurements are not to my liking.

as far as blind testing goes, the only gear i have ever done this with is tuna - i have been able to hook up two tunas to the same station, w/same antenna, level-matched, and w/a creek obh12, passive pre hooked up to my melos pre, blindly switch between them w/my eyes closed.  rapidly switching the tape monitor button leaves you w/no clue as to which tuna is playing.  i did this w/about thirty different tunas...  in one instance, i was not able to tell two apart.  in many instances, i could tell them apart, but that didn't necessarily mean i could tell which one was better, from the blind test - yust that they were different.

as far as placebo effect goes, ya, i admit it is there - for me, i am always wanting the cheaper gear to sound better.   

doug s.

[Scottdazzle]

as far as placebo effect goes, ya, i admit it is there - for me, i am always wanting the cheaper gear to sound better.   

doug s.

Doug,

I always want the more expensive stuff to sound better.  Otherwise I kick myself for spending too much for nothing. 

How you holding up in Frederick?

Scott

[Nuance]

Technically, all SS and tubes amps are "colored," no?  We just need to find the "coloration" we can live with.  The same goes for speakers.

Blind tests suck; I've partaken in a few.  Its honestly very hard work, even if you're just a listener.  It's not a practical way to audition gear, but if it must be done, save it for speaker auditions.  A DBT, level matched test in your own room can really help decide which speakers are "right" for you.  Again, this is far from practical (or even possible), though, so nearly everyone will take a pass to this method.  I know I'll never partake in one again; it just takes the fun out of everything.  YMMV, of course. 

Listen to various equipment, and chose based on what you hear.  Doing this in your own room is the best route to go.  If you hear a difference, forget everything else, even if science can "prove you wrong."  Sometimes ignorance is bliss.  Just don't go preaching that your opinions are fact, you have golden ears and that you are an audio god. 

[Nuance]

Hello Nuance can I ask which system sounded more life like?

I realized I never actually answered the question.  If I could keep the Ayre or Audio Research systems, it would have been the Audio Research system.  Yes, I think tubes add coloration, but that doesn't matter if it sounds more realistic to my ears.  I would just never be able to afford the whole tube thing, nor do I have the time to search for the "perfect tube."  But if I did, I would. 

[2bigears]

   i love the threads 1st line.speakers first.i have really over spent on every part of my system.thousands on speakers.now after a few years in the know,i am going for home builts,Super V's will be in the house in a month or so singing.i am excited once more.these speakers are on the cheap and i am hoping for big things.....can't believe the money i spent on power cords for silly gain/cost factor.....live and learn i quess.....

[gerald porzio]

W/o DBTs, the only standard is that there is no standard.

[topround]

Fremers room is not small, it seems small because it is filled with racks of records, but trust me sitting in the one chair in the room will transport you. Most people listen to recordings, in that seat you are in the recording studio. It is a pretty amazing experience, one that I was lucky enough to hear many times. Not bragging...please...but so many people knock him without ever being in his room, everyone I took there walked out in disbelief. And yes the Wilson Maxx 3's work great in there.

[DaveC113]

I never said it was wrong to like single driver speakers.  What I said was:  "Can someone enjoy them?  Sure...I don't see any advantages though...unless one were to listen at particular[ly] low volumes."

Actually, this was the full statement:

...the midrange would lack in dynamics, the low-end would lack in a variety of ways and the highs are already compromised.  Can someone enjoy them?  Sure...I don't see any advantages though...unless one were to listen at particular low volumes.

It's like walking into a wine tasting and going off about how putrid it tastes and how wrong it is to drink alcohol... but can someone enjoy wine? Sure.

It's not a direct insult, and I never accused you of being directly insulting. I don't think I was directly rude in my response to you either, but apparently it ruined Nuance's night 

Also, many people obviously disagree with you, hence the market for high end sources, preamps, and the existence of single driver speakers. You are inferring that this market exists to fulfill the needs of delusional people that buy stereo equipment on the basis of phenomenon that don't actually exist.

In response, I am stating that you feel that way because you haven't experienced 2 sources or preamps that sound that different, and the obvious fact that you haven't heard a really good single driver system. I'm not sure why that needed to be called out, or why I needed to be subjected to a condescending lecture on etiquette.

That is all I will say about that.

Any speaker type has the potential to perform at a world class level, it is up to the listener to decide what sounds most natural to them. We all hear differently, and what sounds like a realistic reproduction of music varies from person to person. Also, it should be no surprise that some people are more sensitive to changes in their system than others. This has no bearing on how much people enjoy listening to music. For me personally, a lot of factors need to come together to make a system that I enjoy listening to. Because of this, what may seem like minor changes to some are not so minor to me. Hearing imprecise imaging, a poor soundstage, off tones, harshness, lack of frequency extensions, etc... are all things that need to be fixed, just for the system to be acceptable. People all have different standards or preferences. 

[cujobob]

W/o DBTs, the only standard is that there is no standard.

This.  DBTs are overly complicated for a reason...you have to completely remove the placebo effect.  I don't believe anyone could tell the difference blind between a 30$ DIY power cable (meaning, using good parts) and one that costs a thousand dollars in a blind test.  Does this mean there's no difference?  Not necessarily, but again, it will tell you if the 'upgrade' is worthwhile from a cash standpoint.  FWIW, I don't know for sure if there's a $1,000 power cable, I'm just assuming there is 

99% of us have budgets of some sort yet many subjective comments lead us to believe that certain tweaks or minor upgrades are a worthwhile investment over upgrading our speakers.

Consider this, if you were to sell (or just not purchase in the first place)all of your electronic equipment and speaker cables, how much would you have?  What speaker upgrade would then be available to you using that plus the money your mains cost?  If you were to use those upgraded speakers with say, a high quality cheap receiver (using cheap gainclones or something of that nature if you need extra power), would you have a better experience?  In my own experience, I was able to do this and I would never go back.  Then again, my mains are 95 db speakers.  This is one reason why I believe sensitivity is so important.  I include subs in with speakers btw.

There does come a point where diminishing returns kicks in, obviously, but here on AC, most are likely below that point IMO (high-value offerings are sold from the manufacturers who participate).


Dave, I pointed out fairly obvious limitations on single driver designs that are somewhat well known.  A big driver hasn't been developed, to my knowledge, that does highs well.  If you stick a small driver in a huge cabinet, you have to deal with issues caused by that.  Dynamically, a single driver can't do what other designs can.  They could sound great, I'm not saying they couldn't...I just believe there are limitations.  A perfect single driver is the ideal, there just haven't been any developed yet IMHO.  Every design has limitations or trade-offs...hence why there are so many different options on the market.  I'd go a different route, that's all.  Nothing wrong with liking single driver speakers...I've been meaning to add a good single driver speaker to my collection for years.  I use waveguide-based speakers...critique those all you like.

I don't believe all speaker types have the potential to perform at a world class level.  Many are going to be restricted dynamically, some are restricted by thermal compression, and all are waiting on technological advances.  If electrostats could go down flat to 10hz without a sub, maybe we'd all be using those, but that doesn't exist.  If waveguides could provide directional control down to 500 hz, awesome!  That would take an enormous waveguide, though...one that is impractical for most of the market.

[Nuance]

FWIW, I don't know for sure if there's a $1,000 power cable, I'm just assuming there is 

Its not an assumption anymore.    And these guys aren't the only ones, for what its worth.

http://www.geeksaresexy.net/2008/09/26/futuretech-powerflux-the-most-expensive-power-cable-ever/