[srb]

As has been stated, good tube and solid state amp specimens sound remarkably alike!

Then why not just get a good solid state specimen?  Why fool around with tube inefficiency, heat, curious child fingers/pets and replacement?
 
Steve

[Nuance]

There is a very important fact that I would like to bring up:

Sonic limitations are generally brought upon as a result of the circuit and quality of components used. As has been stated, good tube and solid state amp specimens sound remarkably alike!

Class D is showing us some performance that's incredible! There are tube amplifier builds that are simply amazing.

The issue of coloration is composed of 100% opinion and hopefully some consensus. In another words, it's all pretty much opinion BUT...a consensus by several people can add more creditability towards how something sounds. Everything seen and heard is an interpretation.

Word.  Although, sometimes what people think they hear doesn't really exist.  It makes this hobby more opinionated than it should be, and many manufacturers feed off that, offering products that do nothing other than play tricks on the mind, or perhaps even making the sound worse.  Oh well...

Then why not just get a good solid state specimen?  Why fool around with tube inefficiency, heat, curious child fingers/pets and replacement?
 
Steve

Bingo.  That's also my line of thinking.  A great tube preamp and DAC can help achieve a certain desired sound, but is it accurate?  Heck, what's the definitive definition of "accurate?"  Also, is it worth putting the time and money into tube rolling, tweaking and tinkering, then replacing the tubes again when they've hit their shelf-life?  Some will answer yes, some will answer no.  It's all dependent on the individual, and is part of what makes this hobby so great.  However, when someone goes around making unproven claims that their opinion is fact, or what they hear is "right," then this hobby gets annoying.  Once again, oh well...gotta take the good with the bad, as the bad will never outweigh the good, at least for me.   

While I agree with some of what turkey said, this is not a "circle jerk;" it's just a friendly debate.  Lets keep it that way. 

[doug s.]

Driving 100db anything, an amp only needs to have one clean watt and be relatively noise-free.  With a speaker of average efficiency (mid-upper 80s), many tube amps sound colored....especially cheaper chinese-based designs.

i agree in principle w/what you are saying - no way i would use my almarro with, say, my piega p5 mkll ltd's.  (even tho they are 91db-efficient; at 4 ohms, they present a serious load to amps.)   my 40w audio mirror 6c33c set monoblocks do yust fine here, as does my mesa baron, which can be run 55w triode, 80w at 2/3 troide-1/3 pentode, 120w at 2/3 pentode-1/3 triode, or 150w pentode.

re: cheap chinese amps, i think you are generalizing - the ~$500 (shipped) yaqin mc-100b, at 65w ul/35w triode, is a fine amp, and would have no problem w/most speakers of mid-upper 80's db efficiency, unless wanting to go extremely loud in extremely large rooms.  many tube amps may sound coloured.  but many may not.



doug s.

[Nuance]

I'm stuck here repairing computers all day (not that I am actually complaining!  ). But- this thread seemed like it was moving along well.

What company do you work for?  I'm also in IT, so I was just curious.  Repairing and building computers all does sounds like my dream job (well, either that or something to do with Audio - duh, haha). 

[doug s.]

Then why not just get a good solid state specimen?  Why fool around with tube inefficiency, heat, curious child fingers/pets and replacement?
 
Steve

i had a fine sounding pair of s/s amps - electrocompaniet aw75dmb's, which are comparable w/other "top" s/s amps, imo.  but, when i went to try tubes the first time, (a pair of tiny asl wave-8's), there was yust something musical about them, (on 89db-efficient 2-way monitors, crossed to subs at 80hz, in a 26x38 room), that the ec's never made it back into the system.  tho the 8w was definitely not enough to properly drive those speakers in my large room, they were replaced w/a decent tube amp, and i have never looked back.  price-wise, the amp i got - a mesa baron - was equivalent to the ec's.  and yes, i had already made the move to a tubed preamp.

while i like tube amps, there's no way i would ask them to do low bass - that is what s/s amps and active x-overs and subwoofers are for.     (i still do have my aw75dmb's - they are now my subwoofer amps.)

doug s.

[Niteshade]

You can replace tubes yourself. Generally not transistors. The high serviceability of tube technology is unique in this throw away society.

All tube amps do not have to be inefficient and I know of several transistor amps that are little space heaters.

(Please watch out for blanket statements!!!!) They muddy the waters. 

Tubes have their place and they will never be disposed of. They're simply amazing! The flexibility of designs is mind blowing. Tubes share something with integrated circuits, believe it or not, especially pentodes: It takes very few components to get something working. Do it right and you'll have an amp for life that is easy to maintain. (Oh...I better get off my soap box!)

[Browntrout]

Who of us has listened for a good length of time (as in months) to both a high end tube system and a high end solid state system? By high end I mean well over twenty thousand pounds worth.
  You see, I have not had this priviledge and most likely never will. My understanding from reading what those that have done so have writen is that while the two devices have their strengths tubes ultimately have the advantage over transistors in transparancy and naturalness.
  To be honest 'upgrading' is never ideal as really the best approach is to build it from the begining with components that were designed to work with each other rather than mix and match manufacturers and technologies.

[BobM]

Yeah, but how many of us have or are willing to spend the coin to put together a system from scratch? I know my system evolved over a good amount of time, with money spent here and there. I could never expect my wife to agree to spend that kind of outlay on a system all at once.

Also, the journey and learning and experience I've enjoyed while putting it together is what makes me the audiophile I am today. That's a big part of the hobby too. I wouldn't want someone else to say "buy this, and this, and this" and you'll be all set. Where's the fun in that?

[rajacat]

there are circles, and then there are jerks.   

some of us like to use our ears listening to music, not our eyes reading specs, to determine what sounds most like music - i.e.: less coloured.

ymmv,

doug s.

 

[Nuance]

My understanding from reading what those that have done so have writen is that while the two devices have their strengths tubes ultimately have the advantage over transistors in transparancy and naturalness.

What have you been reading?  I've never read anything that definitely proves that tubes have the ultimate advantage in transparency. 

Yeah, but how many of us have or are willing to spend the coin to put together a system from scratch? I know my system evolved over a good amount of time, with money spent here and there. I could never expect my wife to agree to spend that kind of outlay on a system all at once.

Also, the journey and learning and experience I've enjoyed while putting it together is what makes me the audiophile I am today. That's a big part of the hobby too. I wouldn't want someone else to say "buy this, and this, and this" and you'll be all set. Where's the fun in that?

Unfortunately this happens, and on this very forum. 

Who of us has listened for a good length of time (as in months) to both a high end tube system and a high end solid state system? By high end I mean well over twenty thousand pounds worth.
  You see, I have not had this priviledge and most likely never will. My understanding from reading what those that have done so have writen is that while the two devices have their strengths tubes ultimately have the advantage over transistors in transparancy and naturalness.
  To be honest 'upgrading' is never ideal as really the best approach is to build it from the begining with components that were designed to work with each other rather than mix and match manufacturers and technologies.

The closest thing I've directly compared is an Ayre SS system ((k-5 series preamp and v-5 series amp) and a Audio Research tube system (Ref 5 preamp and dual Ref 210 amps).  Lets just say I'd be set for life with either of these systems, and oddly enough they were more alike than different.  Then I learned the price of each system, and my joy turned to sorrow.   

In the end there is only ONE thing that matters; whether YOU like the sound or not.  Forget everything and everyone else; trust your own ears and enjoy.  Yes I know, easier said than done for some of us more anal folks, but its ultimately all about enjoying the music.  If you need SS to do that, do it.  If you need a power conditioner to do it, go for it.  The problems arise when people make wild claims that their opinions are the only "correct" ones, but that is just inevitable I suppose.  When that happens, retreat to your music system or engage in a friendly debate.  Whatever you chose to do, try to keep it civil.  After all, we're all hear because we're connected through the love of audio/video.   

[cujobob]

You can replace tubes yourself. Generally not transistors. The high serviceability of tube technology is unique in this throw away society.

All tube amps do not have to be inefficient and I know of several transistor amps that are little space heaters.

(Please watch out for blanket statements!!!!) They muddy the waters. 

Tubes have their place and they will never be disposed of. They're simply amazing! The flexibility of designs is mind blowing. Tubes share something with integrated circuits, believe it or not, especially pentodes: It takes very few components to get something working. Do it right and you'll have an amp for life that is easy to maintain. (Oh...I better get off my soap box!)

How often do you need to replace a transistor?  Tubes don't last nearly as long and can get quite costly over time.  Heat from an amp shortens its working life and tube amps are notoriously hot.  Some transistor amps are, but many are not...cool running tube amps are awfully rare.

Tube amps are overrated because the amount of money needed to purchase quality units are much higher than that of transistor based.  Pre-amps are a different story and mostly suffer from being inconvenient.

[Wind Chaser]

Then why not just get a good solid state specimen?  Why fool around with tube inefficiency, heat, curious child fingers/pets and replacement?

Graceful clipping, tweak ability and tube rolling.  Different tubes for different flavors is cheaper than rolling amps.

[cujobob]

Nuance, the problem with going what you like (meaning, sounds good) is that your frame of reference is established by the best you've yet heard.  People like BOSE, does that make it a good value or mean their products are accurate in their reproduction of music?  If we're only limited by what we yet know, we won't get very far.

[doug s.]

Who of us has listened for a good length of time (as in months) to both a high end tube system and a high end solid state system? By high end I mean well over twenty thousand pounds worth.
  You see, I have not had this priviledge and most likely never will. My understanding from reading what those that have done so have writen is that while the two devices have their strengths tubes ultimately have the advantage over transistors in transparancy and naturalness.
  To be honest 'upgrading' is never ideal as really the best approach is to build it from the begining with components that were designed to work with each other rather than mix and match manufacturers and technologies.

well...  i am not sure how relevant it is, because i really do not believe that cost is the ultimate determinant to good sound.  while i am sure that even a 50k pound system can be made to sound fine, i bet there are some 50k pound systems that are lacking.  and i bet i could put together a system for 1/3 the price, that would sound as good as the 50k pound system that isn't lacking. 

but, for what it's worth, my system's retail cost was not far from 20k pounds retail, when i replaced my ($5k) electrocompaniet amps with the $250 asl wave-8 tube mini-monoblocks.  (my cost, done incrementally, was far less than that, as i upgraded in interwals, & i almost always buy used.)  and, while i have found tubes to be more natural for me, it doesn't follow that it will be the case for everyone.  and, i am a strong advocate of active crossovers, and for bass amps, s/s rules, imo.

and, i think it's just as easy, (if not easier) to find ultimate synergy with differing mfr's as w/same mfr's...  yes, you have to find gear that works w/each other, but it doesn't mean you have to use the same mfr's...

ymmv,

doug s.

[doug s.]

Nuance, the problem with going what you like (meaning, sounds good) is that your frame of reference is established by the best you've yet heard.  People like BOSE, does that make it a good value or mean their products are accurate in their reproduction of music?  If we're only limited by what we yet know, we won't get very far.

mebbe i am mistaken, but i think nuance was talking about an educated listener, who has had the opportunity to sample many different quality products.  ya, i always liked my bose 901's and pioneer receiver.  then i heard thiel 3.5's, driven by electrocompaniet electronics.   

doug s.

[Browntrout]

Hello Nuance can I ask which system sounded more life like?

[turkey]

I want to apologize for my comment earlier. I was out of line, and shouldn't have said what I did.

[Niteshade]

With a well designed tube amplifier, you're paying for more than sound: Build quality, versatility and longevity. I do not care much for tube amps based on printed circuits because it takes away some of the virtues that I sincerely believe make them worth while. I'm not saying printed circuits are bad- but they are better off left with transistors. I look at the product as a whole. I like customizations, the ability to have something changed. Heck, tube rolling is fun and not a burden! I have heard very little about transistor rolling, though it is possible.

Buying tubes every so many years doesn't sound bad to me. If the amp burns them them out quickly or if the tubes are not made right- that's annoying. I do not (HOPE NOT!) believe this is the norm for most amps and tubes.

Please note: As I have said before, tube amps do not have to run hot. There are ways around that issue without sacraficing sonic quality. In fact, quality increases.

You're right, transistors do not go bad frequently and that clearly a feather in their cap!

How often do you need to replace a transistor?  Tubes don't last nearly as long and can get quite costly over time.  Heat from an amp shortens its working life and tube amps are notoriously hot.  Some transistor amps are, but many are not...cool running tube amps are awfully rare.

Tube amps are overrated because the amount of money needed to purchase quality units are much higher than that of transistor based.  Pre-amps are a different story and mostly suffer from being inconvenient.

[Niteshade]

Jump on in there!    (Yeah, I'm still at the work bench.  )

I want to apologize for my comment earlier. I was out of line, and shouldn't have said what I did.

[cujobob]

So...tube amps are not colored but tube rolling is a virtue of them?  That doesn't make much sense to me.