[WerTicus]

makes perfect sense to look at the part of the system with the most distortion.

[pardales]

I agree with the general sentiment expressed at the beginning of this thread. First thing is to find out what kind of speakers produce a sound you enjoy (planars, bass reflex, single-driver, etc. etc.). This can take some time and money as you have to listen to different kind of speakers to accomplish this.

The second thing is to make sure your speakers are set up effectively in your room. It is amazing what you can miss out on if you don't have your speakers properly set-up (this probably goes for room treatments as well). Poor set-up can make you think your system is broken or the electronics suck, when it is none of those things. A good set-up/test CD can help with this.

[doug s.]

while it's true that sources are extremely important - gi=go, my sources are about where i want them now.  (except tunas - at least i have about 50 i can play with!    )  digital and analog playback are set.  as is preamp.  the preamp is a key player, imo, as everything interfaces with it.  get the best (tube) preamp you can afford (with low output impedance) and build your system from there. 

then, play w/speakers.  there's so many different types, as have awreddy been mentioned - 2-ways, full-range multi-ways, line arrays, horns, planars, full-range single-driver, omni's, etc.  try different flavors to see what works best for you.  speaker-room and speaker-amp synergy is also critical.  i am presently set in the amp department, as i have amps that will work well w/most any speaker i care to try - high power tubes, low power single-ended tubes, medium-power single-ended tubes, gainclones, and even a coupla s/s offerings, for my subwoofer set-up.  (i could use them for main speakers as well, but i much prefer tubes - even for speakers that require power - tubes on top, and s/s for actively crossed subs is the best of both worlds, imo.)  as far as room goes, my present ~18x40 listening room is ok, but it's a studio apartment, so it is shared with everything else.  in a couple years, i hope to be back in a situation where i can have a ~26x38 listening room; then my present infatuation w/horns should really be able to be appreciated - i presently am able to sit ~9' away; but i know that a min of 12' is what's really needed to make these babies sing properly.

ymmv,

doug s.

[Niteshade]

There is a difference between High Fidelity and an Audiophile. An audiophile does not have to have HiFi equipment. They seek what sounds best to them and are enthusiastic about music. Whether it's HiFi, MidFi or LoFi makes no difference.

SET's or any single ended amp topology should not be covered under the blanket statement that they all add coloration. Some do and some do not.

You will find that there are trade offs with every technology. Single driver speakers are better at certain things than multi-driver speakers. The opposite is true as well. I personally like multi-driver speakers that are very efficient. Less stress on an amp of any power rating will make it sound better. Amps have better things to do than needlessly warm up voice coils.

Then why are so many people into systems that have increased amounts of distortion or large amounts of coloration?

If SET amps and single-driver speakers aren't rose-colored glasses, I don't know what is.

[cujobob]

I disagree with regards to single driver speakers...the midrange would lack in dynamics, the low-end would lack in a variety of ways and the highs are already compromised.  Can someone enjoy them?  Sure...I don't see any advantages though...unless one were to listen at particular low volumes.

Bulding from a source really seems like a bad idea to me...the differences between sources at various pricepoints are quite small.  A good preamp can certainly enhance the musicality of the system, however, this too is a very small gain by comparison.

With speakers, it takes money to get a certain build quality that is necessary for quality audio.  Better drivers, cabinets, crossovers, and the systems that implement them (horns, waveguides, bass enclosures, etc.) cost money.  You don't have to pay massive amounts, however (and DIY is an option)...just enough to get the basics covered.  There are a lot of systems where simple speaker related issues are left out of the equation...yet high dollar electronics are used.  This system is compromised.  People underestimate what well chosen inexpensive electronics can do.

[cujobob]

makes perfect sense to look at the part of the system with the most distortion.

Distortion is not always audible, so this is a bit misleading.  Let's not give our ears too much credit ...

[turkey]

SET's or any single ended amp topology should not be covered under the blanket statement that they all add coloration. Some do and some do not.

I'm not aware of any that don't. In fact, tube amps in general add coloration, not just compromised designs like SETs.

You will find that there are trade offs with every technology. Single driver speakers are better at certain things than multi-driver speakers. The opposite is true as well. I personally like multi-driver speakers that are very efficient. Less stress on an amp of any power rating will make it sound better. Amps have better things to do than needlessly warm up voice coils.

Yes, single-driver speakers are good for portable radios and intercoms. They're not so good for a stereo or HT system, unless you're after sound effects and not accuracy.

[*Scotty*]

Turkey,You might change your opinion of tubes and coloration if you audition an Audio Research VT 200 power amp.
Scotty

[doug s.]

I'm not aware of any that don't. In fact, tube amps in general add coloration, not just compromised designs like SETs.

Yes, single-driver speakers are good for portable radios and intercoms. They're not so good for a stereo or HT system, unless you're after sound effects and not accuracy.

your statements would be true, if they weren't wrong.   

doug s.

[Browntrout]

I would not give too much credit to what Turkey writes, as I think he writes what he thinks will annoy.

[doug s.]

Turkey,You might change your opinion of tubes and coloration if you audition an Audio Research VT 200 power amp.
Scotty

or a mesa baron, or antique sould lab hurricanes, or audio mirror 6c33c's, or almarro a205a mkll's driving 100db-efficient drivers, or a boatload of other tube gear.   in fact, i have found that it's the solid state amplification that is more likely to offer colourations to music that are not natural - harsh, grainy, etched, dry, w/2-dimensional soundstage... 

doug s.

[turkey]

your statements would be true, if they weren't wrong.   

doug s.

So you think tube amps and single-driver speakers are accurate? Most people just say they prefer the colorations.

[Niteshade]

What do you think is accurate? I'm going to play devil's advocate for a while.

[Browntrout]

Why engage?

[turkey]

Sorry to have intruded on the circle jerk here.

[doug s.]

So you think tube amps and single-driver speakers are accurate? Most people just say they prefer the colorations.

some are, some aren't.

in my set-up, my fostex fe206e's, in oris 150 horns are accurate, driven by my 5wpc almarro single-ended pentode amp, from 300hz to 22khz.  i know they are, cuz my deqx has eq'd everything for flat frequency response.     i also know they are accurate, cuz the noise they make sounds so much like real music.

i dunno about you, but i listen w/my ears, not w/my eyes glued to spec sheets.  accurate spec sheets don't necessarily mean uncoloured sound coming out of your speakers.

doug s.

[Niteshade]

I'm stuck here repairing computers all day (not that I am actually complaining!  ). But- this thread seemed like it was moving along well.

I am engaging just to see what Turkey's opinion of an uncolored system is and I want something to do while this computer is installing software & updates.

I heartily disagree with most blanket statements and over generalizations because there is just way too much gear out there to say it all sounds the same.

[doug s.]

Sorry to have intruded on the circle jerk here.

there are circles, and then there are jerks.   

some of us like to use our ears listening to music, not our eyes reading specs, to determine what sounds most like music - i.e.: less coloured.

ymmv,

doug s.

[cujobob]

Driving 100db anything, an amp only needs to have one clean watt and be relatively noise-free.  With a speaker of average efficiency (mid-upper 80s), many tube amps sound colored....especially cheaper chinese-based designs.  Many good inexpensive tube pres...and that's really all one needs in order to enhance the soundstage.

I wonder how some low-cost receivers sound on 95+ db speakers.  My Pioneer 919 sounds great with my 95 db Abbeys, I'll have to try it with less sensitive speakers and compare it with my 'high-end' gear one of these days.

[Niteshade]

There is a very important fact that I would like to bring up:

Sonic limitations are generally brought upon as a result of the circuit and quality of components used. As has been stated, good tube and solid state amp specimens sound remarkably alike!

Class D is showing us some performance that's incredible! There are tube amplifier builds that are simply amazing.

The issue of coloration is composed of 100% opinion and hopefully some consensus. In another words, it's all pretty much opinion BUT...a consensus by several people can add more creditability towards how something sounds. Everything seen and heard is an interpretation.