[Nuance]

Order of importance in my opinion:

- Room
- Speakers
- Source
- Everything else

You could put the "best" speakers in the world in a crappy room and you'd still get sub-par sound.  Room first, speakers second, source third, everything else next.  I believe the room and speakers combined make up 95% of what we hear (or more).  Feel free to argue that point if you must, but that's my thought process. 

Just my $0.02

[Duke]

In many cases the speaker choice can make a worthwhile difference for the amplifier by presenting a more benign impedance curve, or a more efficient load, or by enabling the use of amps that might not otherwise have been possible (specialty tube amps, low-powered Class A solid state amps, etc.).  I've had the good fortune of showing with some very nice tube amps at audio shows, and as a result my speakers undoubtedly got more credit than they deserved... but at least the use of such amps was feasible.

In a rock band it's usually the lead guitar that stands out and gets the most attention and is the most memorable, but often it's the bass player backing him up that makes him sound so good.  Likewise, often there's a really good amp backing up that good sounding pair of speakers. 

Speaking of which, if you haven't clicked on the link in Nightshade's signature yet, go back and do so.  I found this page especially interesting.

[Bill Baker]

Niteshade, I hope you don't mind me postingin this thread but I just wanted to add some personal thoughts on the subject.

 Everything you mentioned I agree with. Synergy is a key element when putting a system together. Where others may not agree with me........... I think all the components within a system are critical. I truly beleive in the "weakest link" way of thought.

 Yes, your speakers must synergize with your amplifier but if you don't have a preamp that is up to the task in front of that amp, it's all in vain. If you have all the right pieces together, amp, preamp and speakers, but have a source component that sounds like crap, the rest of that "great system" is only going to show you how bad that source component is.

Example: I have worked very hard to put together a reference system in our showroom. Everything works great together so our platform is set. I can take an inferior CD player and install it and all of a sudden, that great presentation is gone. Put the reference digital playback back in and we are back to great sound........ install a cheap preamp...... back to bad again. Even the little details come into play. Tubes, cabling, etc. Even my mood (state of mind) can have an effect on how much I can appreciate things at any given time.

 I don't think a system's components should be broken down into "priorities". In the end, it comes down to the sum of the complete package.

[Photon46]

There's a great deal of truth in Niteshade and Response Audio's posts. Like Bill, I have found the synergistic relationship between components (or lack thereof) to make the difference. One weak link and you've lost the magic. While my systems have been hardly "reference"  level, I've been lucky to have built my current and past systems around two speakers that had a basic character I liked. (Magneplanar 1.6qrs and ACI Talisman SE.) Even though I liked the gestalt and basic character of each, it took work and careful component matching to bring out the best of each respective speaker. I suspect the most common "weakest link" may well be a poor room, or poor speaker placement within the room.

[Niteshade]

Good points! You're welcome to post any time in my threads.

The reason I started this thread is to avoid disappointment. If somebody finds themselves playing the eternal swap game other than for fun, then something is terribly wrong! All your gear can be top notch, but may not work at all well together.

It would be nice if a speaker builder would contribute to this thread in regards to speaker & room interfacing. My main room uses Klipsch RF-83's and it is not a big room. As tall as the speakers are, I elevated them another foot via custom solid hard wood boxes. Big speakers in a small room was right for me. It may go against common practice- but at times you have to do things differently to get the exact right sound. Elevating those monsters sounds silly- but WOW! What a difference.. and in a fairly small room to boot!

I have found that even poor gear sounds better with the right speakers. Good speakers can sound poor with the wrong placement. Toe-in might be necessary for proper imaging. There are all sorts of tricks, including rearranging the room.

Something of interest: RF-83's can be bright. Other than that, they are very true to the source and one watt will drive you out of the room. The bass output can shake a house to its foundation. Their imaging is glorious. Put a poor amp on them and...wham. It's all gone! I find that tweeter control is very important. Most people talk about woofer control. Tweeter control is something I have heard very little about on here or anywhere. When an amp can control a the tweeter properly...wow! I don't like subdued highs and can't stand glare, scheechiness or 'standing waves'- where a certain frequency seems to permeate everything like you were wading through it.

Please- others chime in! This is sort of a trouble shooting thread designed to save you possibly thousands and several aspirin.

Niteshade, I hope you don't mind me postingin this thread but I just wanted to add some personal thoughts on the subject.

 Everything you mentioned I agree with. Synergy is a key element when putting a system together. Where others may not agree with me........... I think all the components within a system are critical. I truly beleive in the "weakest link" way of thought.

 Yes, your speakers must synergize with your amplifier but if you don't have a preamp that is up to the task in front of that amp, it's all in vain. If you have all the right pieces together, amp, preamp and speakers, but have a source component that sounds like crap, the rest of that "great system" is only going to show you how bad that source component is.

Example: I have worked very hard to put together a reference system in our showroom. Everything works great together so our platform is set. I can take an inferior CD player and install it and all of a sudden, that great presentation is gone. Put the reference digital playback back in and we are back to great sound........ install a cheap preamp...... back to bad again. Even the little details come into play. Tubes, cabling, etc. Even my mood (state of mind) can have an effect on how much I can appreciate things at any given time.

 I don't think a system's components should be broken down into "priorities". In the end, it comes down to the sum of the complete package.

[Wind Chaser]

A lot of good points here, but can't help but remember hearing a $200 pair of Canadian mini monitors by Szabo with a Michaelson & Austin TVA-1.  My jaw dropped upon hearing these speakers driven with this classic tube amp.

[droht]

I've spent a lot of time swapping speakers and electronics.  What I find is that I hear a larger difference from speaker to speaker than from amp to amp, but I have found numerous speakers that I really like.  They have different strengths, but out of 8 pairs of speakers I've tried over previous couple of years 3 stand out as the best to me, and 3 others as being very good. 

The difference with electronics is smaller to me, but somehow more significant.  I've had at least a dozen amps in my system, and the ones I have preferred seem to add another dimension to the sound, almost without regard to which speaker.   The difference the amps bring to the table may only be a few percent of the total sound, but those few points can make a lot of difference, moving the sound from good to special.  In the end I think that is what we need to shoot for.  Perfect doesn't exist, but getting something special that evokes emotion certainly does. 

[Browntrout]

From a pychological point of view, the further up the chain the harder it is to listen through a components failings.
  For me it's simple and obvious. The most important component is the one that is closest to the media.
  Try a system with one good interconnect in it and the rest average, put the good one in from the source and listen then try it from pre to power and see which sounds best?

[Nuance]

I assume the OP started the thread with the thought process that no equipment in the chain was faulty, for what its worth.  Of course the most important piece is the weakest link, but if everything is working "as its suppose to," then its room and speakers for me.

[satfrat]

Niteshade, I hope you don't mind me postingin this thread but I just wanted to add some personal thoughts on the subject.

 Everything you mentioned I agree with. Synergy is a key element when putting a system together. Where others may not agree with me........... I think all the components within a system are critical. I truly beleive in the "weakest link" way of thought.

 Yes, your speakers must synergize with your amplifier but if you don't have a preamp that is up to the task in front of that amp, it's all in vain. If you have all the right pieces together, amp, preamp and speakers, but have a source component that sounds like crap, the rest of that "great system" is only going to show you how bad that source component is.

Example: I have worked very hard to put together a reference system in our showroom. Everything works great together so our platform is set. I can take an inferior CD player and install it and all of a sudden, that great presentation is gone. Put the reference digital playback back in and we are back to great sound........ install a cheap preamp...... back to bad again. Even the little details come into play. Tubes, cabling, etc. Even my mood (state of mind) can have an effect on how much I can appreciate things at any given time.

 I don't think a system's components should be broken down into "priorities". In the end, it comes down to the sum of the complete package.

I couldn't agree more with your "weakest link" approach Bill which brings me to what I believe is the foundation of any system and that's power conditioning. W/o clean power, no system regardless of it's hype can truely live up to it's potential w/o cleaning all the crap that is in everyone's home circuits. My personal feelings is system synergy starts with the outlet. If you don't have clean power to start with, any upgrade is a mute point IMHO.   
 
If your whole system is battery powered , please disregard this post. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[*Scotty*]

I prefer to think of noisy power coming into your system as the equivalent of tying one hand behind your back and engaging in a boxing match. There are systems, that even with one figurative hand tied behind their back, will still beat the crap out of a lesser system with the best power conditioning available. I prefer to put my money into the equipment that reproduces the music on my recordings first and worry about my power conditioning second. The cleanest power in the world won't make a mediocre circuit sound like circuit that has a superior design.
Scotty

[cujobob]

Well, the 'weakest link' way of thinking is accurate in some ways, but currently you can obtain quality for any component but speakers for very low amounts.  There are some inexpensive amplifiers, cables, DACs, room treatments, and everything else that can be obtained quite easily.  The improvement beyond the absolutely necessary level of quality will cost big money...but quality isn't rare.  For speakers, there are limitations to most designs and it will cost a good amount of money to achieve all goals within a system.  Between being dynamically restricted due to size constraints, in-room bass issues, highs being soaked up or the opposite, poor off-axis quality, and other reasons...there are a lot of things that can only be achieved by the speaker system.

[DaveC113]

I agree with Response Audio, everything is important. The only thing I'd add is the importance of having the right amp / speaker combination, especially with single driver and higher efficiency speakers. It seems like many speakers work well enough with most high powered ss amps, but this does not apply to all speakers. I know some would say the speakers that sound the same regardless of amp are better engineered, but that doesn't mean they sound good.

Also, I question the synergy between source and amp being critically important. I'd think that any high quality source will sound good on a wide variety of systems, but I'd also be interested if anyone has experience to to prove the opposite.

A lot of it comes down to what you can afford, and a carefully put-together single driver / tube amp system can sound better than higher priced conventional systems. I have under $2k into my amp and speakers, and I haven't heard a multi-way speaker selling for under $10k I like better, given my tastes and priorities. Then I'd still need an amp...

[Niteshade]

I would not call it 'more credit' than was deserved. The combination worked well and showed off what a good speaker and amp can accomplish. That was a very good, accurate representation. It shows the importance of matching equipment. Maybe some other amp would not have worked as well- but that's not your issue when the speaker represents a well balanced load.

In many cases the speaker choice can make a worthwhile difference for the amplifier by presenting a more benign impedance curve, or a more efficient load, or by enabling the use of amps that might not otherwise have been possible (specialty tube amps, low-powered Class A solid state amps, etc.).  I've had the good fortune of showing with some very nice tube amps at audio shows, and as a result my speakers undoubtedly got more credit than they deserved... but at least the use of such amps was feasible.

In a rock band it's usually the lead guitar that stands out and gets the most attention and is the most memorable, but often it's the bass player backing him up that makes him sound so good.  Likewise, often there's a really good amp backing up that good sounding pair of speakers. 

Speaking of which, if you haven't clicked on the link in Nightshade's signature yet, go back and do so.  I found this page especially interesting.

[Niteshade]

I couldn't agree more. You are talking about the true definition of HiFi. Hearing everything can be annoying, AKA: Garbage in, garbage out. That's the way it ought to be. HiFi in the strictest sense is no parking place for rose colored glasses.

From a pychological point of view, the further up the chain the harder it is to listen through a components failings.
  For me it's simple and obvious. The most important component is the one that is closest to the media.
  Try a system with one good interconnect in it and the rest average, put the good one in from the source and listen then try it from pre to power and see which sounds best?

[Nuance]

I couldn't agree more with your "weakest link" approach Bill which brings me to what I believe is the foundation of any system and that's power conditioning. W/o clean power, no system regardless of it's hype can truely live up to it's potential w/o cleaning all the crap that is in everyone's home circuits. My personal feelings is system synergy starts with the outlet. If you don't have clean power to start with, any upgrade is a mute point IMHO.   
 
If your whole system is battery powered , please disregard this post. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

Seriously?  I mean, sure, if someone had awful power, but most people don't.  So...seriously? 

[Nuance]

I prefer to think of noisy power coming into your system as the equivalent of tying one hand behind your back and engaging in a boxing match. There are systems, that even with one figurative hand tied behind their back, will still beat the crap out of a lesser system with the best power conditioning available. I prefer to put my money into the equipment that reproduces the music on my recordings first and worry about my power conditioning second. The cleanest power in the world won't make a mediocre circuit sound like circuit that has a superior design.
Scotty

Now that I agree with.  If the circuit is bad, fix it.  A power conditioner will not "fix" it.

[satfrat]

Now that I agree with.  If the circuit is bad, fix it.  A power conditioner will not "fix" it.

I couldn't disagree more with that statement. There's not a clean home circuit in any home. Every motorized appliance is injecting garbage into the circuit and it shows up at your system. Anyone who has power conditioning in their system will attest to it's effectiveness in lowering the ground noise which in turn will allow more music to be heard. This is a well known fact to many audiophiles.
 
But to each their own. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[Nuance]

^ well, I meant an obvious flaw, of course; like the circuit is actually messed up.  That normal, every day stuff is unavoidable, but has it been proven (sighted conditions don't count) to cause added noise or audible inconsistencies?  And has a power conditioner been proven to fix those issues in every circumstance?  If it has, I'll believe it.

As far as I know every device has a transformer for isolation, and most all devices have AC rectified to DC for internal usage.  A power conditioner might help resolve a "noise" issue, but it really depends on the source of said noise.

Well known fact?  Doubt it.  Opinion?  Yes. 

Yes, to each their own. 

Edit:  Check these out if you have noise issues (generally cheaper than power conditioners, and they work   You can also build your own for much less):
http://www.jensen-transformers.com/

[mjosef]

I look at my wallet first. No money there...no need to upgrade.