[Niteshade]

There is no denying a great sounding speaker's influence in a sound system. Looking at the amplifier first, cables, preamp, etc...is tempting because their easy to change in and out of a system. It's my professional opinion that the speakers should be scrutinized before anything else. Your speakers are the voice to everything else in the sound system. This is a undeniable fact. The amp pushes voice coils and that's all she wrote for that one.

I like excruciatingly high detail. Fingers running across a chalk board should make your hair stand on end. A knock on the door better make me look at my door.  So on and so fourth. At least 90% of your system's performance rests with the speakers. It's possible you have great speakers but there is a synergy problem: Bright speakers + bright amp doesn't work too well. Or: A low powered amp with 86db speakers. Nothing happening there for sure that's exciting.

Sometimes instant fixes are available: You have a tube amp and it sounds kinda-well, of its game. If your speakers are 8 ohms, try the amp's 4 ohm output. WOW! The difference can be like night and day. No cost. No fuss.

We all have different tastes: Maybe you have a multi-speaker system (Woofer, mid & tweeter) and would benefit from a wide-range single driver option. The opposite is true too. Both systems have their pro's and con's. Please ask those on AC what they use for their preferred music genre AND listening volumes, room size, etc... 

I am writing this due to upgrade questions that begin with, "I feel something is missing..."  That's actually the ultimate music lover's query. We want it and WANT IT ALL! We also want it according to our spin of what sounds good. Nothing wrong with that.

Please take my advice and begin your upgrade quest with the speakers. I feel that people that do not are often disappointed and keep swapping out other components in search of a 'quick fix'. You ***have to know*** your speaker's pro's and con's before purchasing anything else or your leading yourself into multiple disappointments that are nobody's fault and can lead to crappy reviews based on a synergy problem and not an individual device issue! I cannot stress how important it is to know your speakers, listening room, etc...

If you know your speakers inside and out, spent thousands on the system and it still does not sound right- you're back to a synergy issue. Dark & dark sound awful. Dark & warm or bright may sound better. Take a step back and see what's going on. Clinical & dark are awful too. There's plenty of bad mixes and the price of your gear has nothing to do with it. It can all be quality equipment, but if it does not work well together it's all in vein.

[turkey]

I agree, although I'd add in the listening room and the recording as being extremely important too.

I also feel that there are good speaker designs and bad ones, and plenty of research showing that people tend to agree on what are the good ones.

[bpape]

I agree, although I'd also add in the listening room and the recording as being extremely important too.

Agreed, though I'm obviously biased with the room.  I'll take a moderate system in a proper room and set up right over a really nice system in a room that has issues any day.  That said, the speaker and the room have to work together.  Maggie MG20's aren't going to work in a 10x12 bedroom.  LS3/5A's aren't going to work in a 24x30 room with a 12' ceiling.  Getting the room right and getting speakers that work well within that room is the key IMO.  Then you can start looking at other things.

Bryan

[turkey]

Agreed, though I'm obviously biased with the room.  I'll take a moderate system in a proper room and set up right over a really nice system in a room that has issues any day.  That said, the speaker and the room have to work together.  Maggie MG20's aren't going to work in a 10x12 bedroom.  LS3/5A's aren't going to work in a 24x30 room with a 12' ceiling.  Getting the room right and getting speakers that work well within that room is the key IMO.  Then you can start looking at other things.

Bryan

Choosing the right speaker can also help to avoid some room problems in the first place.

[mcullinan]

YEs, avoid the macho Im going to have a 20 driver behemoth speaker in a 10 x 12 room. Yes its very many, but will most likely sound like crap.

[turkey]

YEs, avoid the macho Im going to have a 20 driver behemoth speaker in a 10 x 12 room. Yes its very many, but will most likely sound like crap.

I always laughed at Pearson at The Absolute Sound going into raptures about all these huge speakers that he stuffed into his tiny listening room. From what I've heard Fremer still does this.

[Wind Chaser]

LS3/5A's aren't going to work in a 24x30 room with a 12' ceiling. 

In that scenario, a near field arrangement can largely take the room out of the equation.

[rollo]

I always laughed at Pearson at The Absolute Sound going into raptures about all these huge speakers that he stuffed into his tiny listening room. From what I've heard Fremer still does this.

  I have been at HPs home and the room is NOT small. Now the Maggie room is a small med sixed room which measures dead flat. The large room is at least 16 ft wide and about 28 ft long. Plenty of room for the big boys.
  BTW if you ever hear the big system you will appreciate his efforts a bit more IMO. 


charles

[chadh]

I really like this idea, in theory.  But putting it into practice seems to raise a little problem.  I don't know how to isolate speakers from the rest of my system in order to determine which speakers are "the ones" for me.

Some issues can obviously be addressed: like matching the size of speaker to size of room, or the basic speaker type (whether it be a line source or single driver or horn or whatever).  But even within fairly narrowly described sets of speakers (e.g. two way stand mounted monitors with sensitivity around 90dB), there is a lot of variation.  Moreover, each speaker will sound differently on different systems and in different rooms.  Unless I have the opportunity to hear a wide range of these speakers with a wide range of components in my own listening space, I have no hope of knowing which speaker is the right one for me.

Ultimately, I think we're all faced with the same reality.  Given the system currently owned, comprised of many elements, each of us gathers information from professional reviewers, trusted enthusiasts and personal experimentation, and chooses upgrades deemed to offer a high probability of improving the system at a reasonable price.  This may or may not involve changing speakers at any given time.

My personal approach at the moment specifically avoids dealing with my speakers.  I feel I've found a pair of speakers that work reasonably well for me.  I don't believe they are the best I can find, or are likely to be the speakers I will use for the rest of my life.  But they give me a basic presentation that I enjoy, and in my mind I am committed to sticking with this type of speaker for some time (single driver with relatively high efficiency).

Now,my efforts are focused on finding high quality, built-to-last, reasonably priced amplification which will mate well with this type of speaker.  Seriously, I want to find amplification with which I can live for many, many years and never worry about again.  That will allow me to think about only two things:  a digital source (which seems to be a world that's evolving so rapidly, I couldn't imagine committing to anything), and speakers (within the general type that I have already chosen).   I take this approach now with the realization that my ultimate speaker choice will be influenced, partly, by the choices of amplification I make today.

Chad

[cujobob]

My listening room isn't by any means enormous, but my somewhat large Gedlee Abbeys work great...the design intent helps them to work better in real rooms and this is something more people need to consider.  Also, using several subs...in ANY system will make for better sound.  Speakers only having to handle 50-60hz and up will normally sound better and react better within the room.  It also helps to raise the system efficiency in most cases.

Electonics make a difference but a very small one comparatively...I do think it's funny how people can spend enormous amounts on amps and sources for speaker systems that have serious flaws.  The speaker world is 99% marketing gimmicks....finding the good ones are difficult.

[turkey]

  I have been at HPs home and the room is NOT small. Now the Maggie room is a small med sixed room which measures dead flat. The large room is at least 16 ft wide and about 28 ft long. Plenty of room for the big boys.
  BTW if you ever hear the big system you will appreciate his efforts a bit more IMO. 


charles

I'm talking about back when TAS was starting out. He had a fascination with giant Infinity and Magnaplanar systems, and also put together some kind of Frankenstein speaker with parts from an Infinity system and other parts from a Magnaplanar system. I read all this stuff and decided he was completely full of it.

I knew someone at the time who had visited HP, and he was the one who told me that HP's listening room was tiny.

[turkey]

My listening room isn't by any means enormous, but my somewhat large Gedlee Abbeys work great...the design intent helps them to work better in real rooms and this is something more people need to consider.  Also, using several subs...in ANY system will make for better sound.  Speakers only having to handle 50-60hz and up will normally sound better and react better within the room.  It also helps to raise the system efficiency in most cases.

Electonics make a difference but a very small one comparatively...I do think it's funny how people can spend enormous amounts on amps and sources for speaker systems that have serious flaws.  The speaker world is 99% marketing gimmicks....finding the good ones are difficult.

+1

I'd also note that, when you finally get really good speakers and a good room, you also find that the brand of the electronics you use becomes far less important.

[OlesonMD]

I agree wholeheartedly! Buy the best speakers you can afford, then go for the electronics. My personal favorites (for the last 18 years) are VMPS. One of the most natural mid-range reproducers you'll ever hear, although they are well known for their bass response. They bring the concert hall to your listening room, especially with demanding material such as piano and female voices.
It's amazing how many people belong to the "amp de-jour club", always changing amps/pre-amps with little attention to the item that actually produces the sound.

[JCS]

Electonics make a difference but a very small one comparatively...I do think it's funny how people can spend enormous amounts on amps and sources for speaker systems that have serious flaws.  The speaker world is 99% marketing gimmicks....finding the good ones are difficult.

Sometimes, electronics can make a HUGE difference.  Three specific cases, two involving single full range driver speakers that I built and a two-way OB:
1)  Half Changs with Fostex FE206e:  I built them for our daughter and son-in-law.  I delivered them with a little Radio Shack Accurian amp (re-purposed, on sale for $15, 25 wpc.)  The combo produced a horrible screechy sibilance, despite working reasonably well with several other two-way speakers.. Switching to a RS AVR I had given them earlier (obtained for free), resulted in acceptable (but not great) performance.
2)  Metronomes with Fostex F120a:  driven with SS amps (several different ones tried incl. vintage and current), these have truly mediocre performance with weak, sickly highs.  Switching to tubes results in gorgeous sound. 
3)  MJK OB using Fostex FF85k and Eminence Alpha 15a w/ passive XO:  sound wonderful w/ SS amps.  Switching to the MiniWatt tube amp I bought for the F120a Mets results in loose, flabby bass.

There really are speaker/amp combos which are substandard!

Cheers,  Jim

[cujobob]

Sometimes, electronics can make a HUGE difference.  Three specific cases, two involving single full range driver speakers that I built and a two-way OB:
1)  Half Changs with Fostex FE206e:  I built them for our daughter and son-in-law.  I delivered them with a little Radio Shack Accurian amp (re-purposed, on sale for $15, 25 wpc.)  The combo produced a horrible screechy sibilance, despite working reasonably well with several other two-way speakers.. Switching to a RS AVR I had given them earlier (obtained for free), resulted in acceptable (but not great) performance.
2)  Metronomes with Fostex F120a:  driven with SS amps (several different ones tried incl. vintage and current), these have truly mediocre performance with weak, sickly highs.  Switching to tubes results in gorgeous sound. 
3)  MJK OB using Fostex FF85k and Eminence Alpha 15a w/ passive XO:  sound wonderful w/ SS amps.  Switching to the MiniWatt tube amp I bought for the F120a Mets results in loose, flabby bass.

There really are speaker/amp combos which are substandard!

Cheers,  Jim

Those speakers/fullrange drivers would seem to be a big part of the problem.  You have to choose your electronics carefully, don't get me wrong, but they don't need to cost much to achieve the goal.

Speakers not only have to be designed well similarly to the electronics, but the way they interact with the room is a huge part of the overall sound.  Also, a speaker's efficiency and crossover determines how much wattage is necessary.  Between chipamps, tripaths, and First Watt clones...an efficient speaker can get excellent quality sound on the cheap.

[Niteshade]

I wanted to bring up a point in reverse: Poor speakers can make a good amp/preamp/source sound terrible. I 100% agree that the room has allot to do with how a setup performs. People talk about room treatments as a way to resolve some issues- sounds like a good plan!

I never liked low efficiency speakers even if they sound good. I have heard some are easier to drive than others, probably based on their cabinetry and crossover network. The knowledge that the amp's effort is just going up in heat instead of sound is troubling when speakers are down in the upper to lower 80's. They limit the kind of amps that can be tried. What good is that?

[OlesonMD]

 This has been mentioned, but is worth revisiting......the audio quality of the recording itself.
I have a fairly nice sound system and have played LP's and CD's that would make you think you were in a concert hall. And on the other hand, I have a few recordings that were so poorly engineered that it sounds like you are in the audio section of Wal-Mart listening to a boom box. The room it self becomes part of the speaker in the overall sonic signature that is experienced.
Room treatment / quality recordings........very, very important!

[roymail]

Niteshade, great post and thread.

One of the most apparent things to me is the source recording.  We all have recordings that sound amazing, but they are few compared to the many disappointing, crappy sounding ones.

I have to ask, since my system produces nice, musical results on *some* cds, is that an indication that I'm headed in the right direction?

When changing out speakers, for example, with all other parts of the system remaining unchanged, it seems reasonable that this same source material should somehow sound *better.*  Is this assumption wrong?

I have some other questions and observations, but I'll save those for later.

Blair, thanks for a great topic and discussion.  I always respect the opinion and advice of those who know more than I do on any given subject.

[cujobob]

I find that a good speaker will make bad recordings sound much better.  Many typical designs lack in dynamics or are too inefficient (or have insane impedance dips).

A good recording should sound better than a bad one on ANY solid speaker, however, that doesn't mean the speaker can't be improved upon.

A better speaker will sound better with your current gear so long as it's not underdriven.

[Kevin Haskins]

I wanted to bring up a point in reverse: Poor speakers can make a good amp/preamp/source sound terrible. I 100% agree that the room has allot to do with how a setup performs. People talk about room treatments as a way to resolve some issues- sounds like a good plan!

I never liked low efficiency speakers even if they sound good. I have heard some are easier to drive than others, probably based on their cabinetry and crossover network. The knowledge that the amp's effort is just going up in heat instead of sound is troubling when speakers are down in the upper to lower 80's. They limit the kind of amps that can be tried. What good is that?

I wouldn't focus on sensitivity.   I've driven 83dB sensitive loudspeakers with 20W tube amps and it just comes down to designing the crossover so that it is an easy load.   It is trivial from a design standpoint.    The reason the speakers were 83dB had to do with the target size and bandwidth.