[Danny Richie]

I'd like to use the Scan-Speak 6600 for the tweeter, but alas, I have no equipment, nor the experience to properly design something.  So I have to wait and hope......

buzzardmountain, Don't fall for that over priced hype. Do you know why they price those tweeters so high? Because they can.

Take this one:



http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1181

It sells for $36 and that is after a distributor marks it up a bunch. I can buy these straight from the manufacturer in China for $6.50 a piece in large quantites.

Now compare it to this one:



http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1581

Cost is $345. each. 

The difference in the cost to produce from one to the other. Maybe $2.00...

Maybe you should be looking into the Zaph MTs that use that driver?

You mean like this:



A bunch of over priced drivers with cheap crossover parts... Yeah, let's spend $225 each for a woofer then put an Iron core slug in line with it. 

[Kevin Haskins]

Um yeah...aren't those tweeters over $200 each?

Not exactly fitting the average person's budget, and quite a bit different animal than the Anarchy.

Maybe you should be looking into the Zaph MTs that use that driver?

Actually... from a performance and build quality standpoint I don't think matching it up with an expensive tweeter is out of place.    You generally pick components that somehow match in quality.   You don't match a $1 tweeter with a $200 midwoofer but if they perform in a complimentary manner with comparable output/distortion and performance there is no reason not to.    The price of something in this market is often determined by things other than how they perform.   

[Danny Richie]

What's the part number for those curved boxes (sorry, I don't shop PE much).

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-721

You can get them in Maple or Cherry too.

If this turns out well then we can shoot for a MMTMM version next if there is enough demand for it.

[Kevin Haskins]

They have a much more expensive motor in that bottom tweeter and you can see they CNC mill the faceplate rather that cast it.   But it still doesn't add up to $350..... maybe a $20 difference in cost of manufacture in volume.   They probably spend an extra $10 on packaging and they sell it through a distributor that needs 50 points.    It is high-end audio though they will only sell a couple hundred a year in the upper price bracket.    They produce a part that fits that niche including the expected pricing.    It is called running a business and supplying customers with what they want.    Some people want $350 tweeters.

[srb]

Usually drivers are compared to each other by measured parameters, materials and build quality and in the end, actual performance.
 
I don't think that a driver that looks similar to another driver is enough basis for meaningful comparison.
 
Steve
 
 

[Kevin Haskins]

Usually drivers are compared to each other by measured parameters, materials and build quality and in the end, actual performance.
 
I don't think that a driver that looks similar to another driver is enough basis for meaningful comparison.
 
Steve

And there is economy of scale.   If I have to tool a $10K tooling and amortize that over the volume of sales I work with it adds a LOT of cost to the product.    I was looking at a horn tweeter where that was the case.   It was $10K in tooling and another $10K for the production run and that was enough tweeters to last me a decade.   You do the math for how long it takes to pay off that production run, the cost of tooling, the risk and the capital and you try and balance all those factors in how much to charge.   So it isn't as simple as it sounds.   

[cujobob]

What about the RAAL 70-20XR?  I've heard great things about it, though it is expensive.

[drab]

A bunch of over priced drivers with cheap crossover parts... Yeah, let's spend $225 each for a woofer then put an Iron core slug in line with it.

  To be fair, they do offer an upgraded crossover which eliminates the slug. Or you can get the schematic for free and put whatever components you want in it.

[Danny Richie]

The only real (meaningful) difference in the cost of that particular Scan Speak tweeter is the Neo magnets. Those companies in China will program a CNC to whip out those rear mounting plates for free. All they have to do is order a bunch of them and its a done deal.

So Scan Speak orders a bunch of those parts made and then they use them on all of their new upper end tweeters. Just look at them. They all have that same motor structure.

I guarantee you that the back plate that holds all the magnets cost them less than a buck.

Usually drivers are compared to each other by measured parameters, materials and build quality and in the end, actual performance.
 
I don't think that a driver that looks similar to another driver is enough basis for meaningful comparison.

Steve, even the parameters are not that far off. All they did was go to a different motor design and add a copper sorting ring. Regardless of the performance (which BTW is not that different either) the cost to produce is still not that different.

What about the RAAL 70-20XR?  I've heard great things about it, though it is expensive.

I'll have some here shortly.

And the tweeter that I proposed is a VERY good tweeter. There is more difference and a greater performance variance in the use of different capacitors then there is between the tweeter I proposed and a Seas Millennium.

To be fair, they do offer an upgraded crossover which eliminates the slug. Or you can get the schematic for free and put whatever components you want in it.

You are still paying a premium for their pride and name and getting nothing in return on the performance end.

What Scan Speak is doing is setting an artificial value level. So when I go to them and say with a commercial client that wants to use them in their new product line that I just designed for them, and they offer to order 5,000 units form them, then that cost magically drops to about $40 each or less. Then the commercial manufacturer can say that they can say that they use a $220 tweeter in their speaker....

[m-fine]

Yeah, let's spend $225 each for a woofer then put an Iron core slug in line with it. 

So does this mean I should not have taken Seth up on his offer for an iron core inductor upgrade for my Neo 2x kit?     

[mkb]

Will we be able to build our own cabinets as long as the baffle dimensions and net box volume is the same as Parts Express cabinets? Dropping two bills on cabinets for a small TM is kinda defeating the purpose of a budget DIY build IMO. Driver cost are only around $140 for the pair plus crossover parts. In addition, if these sound great and an MMTMM ends up being designed we would be able to match the TM's. Old time carpenter here, I couldn't imagine ever buying boxes for speakers...... the craftsmanship is aspect is what i really enjoy.

[persisting1]

Old time carpenter here, I couldn't imagine ever buying boxes for speakers...... the craftsmanship is aspect is what i really enjoy.

I wish I had this problem 

[cujobob]

I say the more that can be done in PE cabinets, the better!

[buzzardmountain]

Old time carpenter here, I couldn't imagine ever buying boxes for speakers...... the craftsmanship is aspect is what i really enjoy.

I agree......

[Danny Richie]

Sure, if you guys want to build your own boxes then there is nothing wrong with that.

So long as the front baffle size is the same and air space is the same then it will be fine.

[fredk]

Dropping two bills on cabinets for a small TM is kinda defeating the purpose of a budget DIY build IMO.

Doh!!  I looked at $99 and thought, gee thats a great price for pre-built cabs.

Hmm... I wonder if I am up to the challenge of building a curved cabinet?  As a rough guess, I'm thinking $100 should get me all the wood including some very nice veneer.

[fredk]

I just want to confirm that this project is a go before I go ahead and order the woofers.

[Danny Richie]

I am committed to designing a network for it.

I am just waiting for one of these guys to have me send them out a tweeter and a port flare for sizing the holes that they will cut in the baffles and enclosures that will be sent to me to use as a test box.

[jr1414]

Danny,

Any interest in designing an MM-MT crossover for a setup with a MM lower section and an MT upper?  I might be interested in doing an MM lower section in a PE cabinet, bolted to an MT upper in a PE cabinet.  Let me know what you think.

[BrianH]

You are still paying a premium for their pride and name and getting nothing in return on the performance end.
...

What Scan Speak is doing is setting an artificial value level.

As far as setting an artificial value level look to Bose and Monster to see how the cost to manufacture anything relates to sale price.

They charge a lot because they can, they will get away with it as long as the mass consumers don't get a chance to do real comparisons. Consumers these days often buy by status, those companies spend a ton of money building that image which may or may not be a false one.

Figuring in the cost of that new $10k tool as anything but a way to make it at a lower cost will not fly in the global market nor is it a sound investment. You need to have commitments for many 1,000's of something to spread the cost over so you actually save money. I see companies going under every day because of mistakes like that. Toys are great but that doesn't make them sound investments.

So that 10k tool either brings the price down or you shouldn't buy it. Or its a toy and therefore irrelevant.

The normal alternative is to contract the job out to a place that use that expensive tool to produce things cheaper, faster, better.

Such as have a speaker manufacturer make a version for you the way you want it and put your name on it instead of theirs. Then you are not paying for their name and actual build costs come into play. Sound familiar?

Food for thought anyway, just one other guys opinion.