Impressions of a Torus RM20-BAL

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bmckenney

Impressions of a Torus RM20-BAL
« on: 11 Jan 2010, 09:47 pm »
I started another thread on this board recently regarding my experiences with an unbalanced Torus RM10 and an balanced equi=tech 1.5 Q model.  I liked what I heard from the Torus more than the equi=tech but I wanted to go with balanced power so I could tap in to common mode rejection (CMR).  I certainly heard more transparency with the equi=tech and I attributed that to balanced power CMR.  I could pick up on what balanced power does when using the equi=tech and I picked up very similar attributes with the Torus RM20-BAL that the unbalanced Torus RM10 did not bring.  I don't think the increased transparency was because of anything else in the equi=tech.  The equi=tech does have a Plitron transformer BTW.  I did find the equi=tech was analytical and less coherent sounding than the Torus RM10.  The equi=tech spotlighted things, drawing attention to images in a confusing way that made the music harder to understand and this also affected timing queues for some reason.

So I ordered a balanced Torus RM20 and had an electrician install a dedicated, balanced 240V circuit using 10 gauge Romex equivalent wire.  Unfortunately we didn't have room for another run of wire, or we would have installed a normal dedicated unbalanced 120V circuit as well.  Before this, my system was not on a dedicated circuit.

The impressions posted here are related to the following changes. 

A) a dedicated circuit
B) balanced 240V power
C) the RM20-BAL

The biggest improvement that I noticed is how much purer the upper mids and highs are.  I suspect AC noise, whether it is RFI or ringing, really messes up high frequencies when it makes it way in to the signal path.  When that noise is dramatically reduced, the HF's are much purer because of decreased AC noise induced distortion.  In listening to some acoustic percussion of Mickey Hart where he uses a lot of steel instruments such as a triangle and I don't know what else, the sound was so pure I could not believe it.  I hear this in all kinds of music, consistently mind blowing.  I've been around a while and done lots of upgrades/changes that result in changes to the highs but nothing was ever this dramatic.  Other upgrades I've done resulted in more air but never did they unmask the signal such that all I could say was PURE, PURE PURE.  This wasn't more air or HF extension, this was a total unmasking.  Its so good, I feel like saying bring on more HF so I can hear more of it.... try and throw some edgy aggressive fatiguing notes at me, because I can handle it now.  Two nice benefits of the purer highs is it makes listening at lower SPLs more captivating because HF energy and dynamics is more obvious and then again at high SPLs there is no fatiguing HF distortion which is more obvious when it gets loud.  That's a neat trick.  And I think it is really important to note that IMO improved HF response is attributed to a change of something in the signal path, not by an AC conditioner.  I really believe this has much to do with using a dedicated, balanced circuit and not so much the Torus itself.  I didn't even come close to hearing this with the Torus RM10.  Improved HF didn't even register.  I did pick up on more detail with the equi=tech but it wasn't PURE like this.  What I heard was the analytical characteristic I noted above.  That is a big difference in how the cleaned up highs come across with these two balanced PIOs.

The second most noticeable improvement was related to attack and decay.  I think I would also say I'm blending micro dynamics in with this too.  My initial impression was that I changed speakers to planar magnetic or ribbons or 'stats, but my speakers are already planar magnetic.  And by speed I don't mean PRAT.  I think the Torus PIOs, for whatever reason, do PRAT in a neutral way.  They do not hype it up and they don't screw it up like I heard with the equi=tech.  I think it is a fair statement to say I can hear the incredible attack and decay improvements with the Torus RM20 because of the design of the speakers.  I bet a system with cone speakers would reveal this too, but maybe not as obviously.  I have not read a power conditioner review where this was stated to be a dramatic improvement.  Maybe I did in one review.  But I can certainly hear it in my system.  It's a surprising bonus because I wasn't expecting it.  And I have to say it's really unmasked something that was hiding one of the real attributes of my speakers.  I loved my speakers before the RM20 because of dipole soundstage affects and the coherency and seamless dynamic sound, but now I realize I could not really hear the quick natured attack and decay of planar magnetic drivers, which was one of the reasons I purchased these speakers in the first place.  Now it is crystal clear.

I was expecting the balanced circuit and RM20 to do something better than what I heard with the RM10 and equi=tech, but I thought it would be more along the lines of the best of both without bringing anything else to the party.  I was wrong about that.

The above two improvements really caught me off guard because I was really only expecting to hear improvements in the areas typically mentioned in AC conditioner reviews.  That is black backgrounds and the transparency that goes with it, big time dynamic swings and sometimes bass.  These areas all improved too but I won't go in too much detail since its all been stated before.  I would add that the RM20 will not disappoint in these areas, and yes, it is better than what I heard with the equi=tech or the RM10.  The reduced distortion and speed I mentioned above does translate across the board and if you can imagine what that would do to the lower and mid bass.  It is a real treat with acoustic percussion including piano.  The other thing worth noting is that the black background, reduced distoration and the dipole staging of my speakers has taken what I considered a nice 3D wall of sound and nicely enhanced the really spooky effects. 

It was interesting that I found the equi=tech and RM20 were so different.  They are both based on balanced power.  They both employ Plitron transformers.  They both have more than enough current delivery for my system.  The only technical differences I can come up with are the actual circuit from the panel for the RM20 is balanced and the CMR along that circuit may be more effective than having CMR occur only within the transformer, which is what the equi=tech does.  Maybe having all that noise along the non-dedicated circuit to the equi=tech was significantly detrimental to its performance.  The other technical difference might be the LoNo and NBT technology that Plitron states is used with their Torus product and maybe its not used in the transformers they supply to equi=tech.  But I found the Torus really beat the equi=tech in coherency and musicality, not just noise reduction.  How different these two PIO's are is a mystery to me.

As for current delivery, the RM20 is overkill for my system.  An RM15 would have been more than enough.  But the RM15 no longer available in a balanced 240V version.  I did not notice that the RM20 was offering up anything more in the current delivery department compared to the 15 amp equi=tech 1.5Q.  But I'm pretty the RM10 was struggling.  It sure doesn't hurt to have the extra current above the RM10 even though from a math perspective it should have been OK.  The big obvious improvements with the RM20 that I hear are more related to reduced noise and distortion.

It should be noted that I'm a believer that AC conditioners will have different results in different situations and what I hear with a balanced RM20 might not be what someone else would hear if they did the same thing.  A lot of it has to do with how good or bad the AC is in the first place.  If a person already had a dedicated 120V circuit and one of the new RM15s, I wonder if he or she would be as floored as I am with a balanced power feed and corresponding Torus.  However, if you're starting from scratch and will be installing a dedicated circuit it would be a good idea to look at going with a balanced circuit and one of the balanced Torus PIOs.  A balanced 240V circuit isn't much different than an unbalanced single phase 120V circuit when it comes to installation, parts and cost.  It is done with the same wire.  You just install a different breaker and wall outlet.  The cost might be $30 more because of the two phase breaker.  And it is very easy to convert an existing unbalanced 120V dedicated circuit to balanced 240V if someone was interested.  Just change the breaker and outlet.  The wire stays the same as long as it is the correct gauge for a 20 amp circuit.

I plan on tweaking in the future.  I'd like to put in a better 240V wall outlet.  Probably a Hubbel since the live and neutral blade orientation of 240V is not commonly available from domestic or audiophile suppliers.  The current outlet is a spec grade outlet, but it's not as tight fitting as a Hubbel.  And I would like to replace the stock moulded AC cord that comes with the RM20.  And I would also like to try some Alan Maher AC products.  Probably the circuit breaker filters which go on the electrical panel because they seem like an affordable and effective way to clean up the AC upstream of the dedicated balanced line.  Maybe there's another 10% improvement to be had by some affordable and basic tweaking.

I would rank the Torus RM20-BAL as one of the best system enhancements I have ever had the pleasure of experiencing.  Not only is it dramatically better than when I was only using a non-dedicated circuit with various power cords, it also smokes what I heard with the RM10 and equi=tech.  And some of the other AC products I have tried like AC cords, Foundation Research line conditioner/cords were good but not in this category.  I put it right up there with room treatment and attention to acoustics through optimal speaker placement.  But I do know that if I didn't have room treatment and decent acoustics I would not be hearing all of what the surprising Torus RM20-BAL and a dedicated balanced power circuit has to offer.  It is possible I am overstating how important the RM20-BAL is, but it does bring high order of magnitude benefits that I can hear in my system as it stands today.

drummermitchell

Re: Impressions of a Torus RM20-BAL
« Reply #1 on: 11 Jan 2010, 10:10 pm »
Bryan,sounds like you like it 8).Great review.I found with my 15a bal.,
(even though 3 of my amps were just on)as soon as I installed the 20+15 all
hell broke loose(I like that).My thinking is better to have More than enough RESERVE power than not.Congrats on the Torus :thumb:.

Laundrew

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Re: Impressions of a Torus RM20-BAL
« Reply #2 on: 11 Jan 2010, 10:15 pm »
I think I owe it to the 28s (and me) to pick up a pair of these 20s :o

bmckenney

Re: Impressions of a Torus RM20-BAL
« Reply #3 on: 11 Jan 2010, 10:17 pm »
Bryan,sounds like you like it 8).Great review.I found with my 15a bal.,
(even though 3 of my amps were just on)as soon as I installed the 20+15 all
hell broke loose(I like that).My thinking is better to have More than enough RESERVE power than not.Congrats on the Torus :thumb:.

Don, actually I do like it!  Thanks for the PM's a few weeks ago on the balanced Torus.

Bryan

werd

Re: Impressions of a Torus RM20-BAL
« Reply #4 on: 11 Jan 2010, 11:45 pm »
Glad to hear that you like the Rm-20. It really is a blockbuster and an eye opener. Taught me alot about AC. With the rm20 you can add a sub comfortably in the future and not worry about underpowering it.

I have considered changing the power cord but the one provided is balanced. I would like to go into a 10gauge cord but it really is at the bottom of the list for upgrades for me. I have found that the RM-20 relaxes the demand and in some respects replaces the need for high end power cords out to my components now. As these cords basically try and mimick what this unit does so well, and thats to provide good AC delivery. Of course there is noise rejection that a cord offers but the ac delivery isnt a big concern. When i got this i ditched all my Expensive Shunyata cords and downgraded since i got alot of the same performance from my blue circle and gutwire cables. BTW gutwire work real nice between the torus and receiving components. where my Shunyata were a little to much extension in the HF. I believe lessloss work good too. I dont like how the cryo treated cables sound anymore so i basically go with non cryo.

Go check out some subs now as this unit really makes a big diff in that department also. Subs love the Torus.

bmckenney

Re: Impressions of a Torus RM20-BAL
« Reply #5 on: 12 Jan 2010, 12:23 am »
Glad to hear that you like the Rm-20. It really is a blockbuster and an eye opener. Taught me alot about AC. With the rm20 you can add a sub comfortably in the future and not worry about underpowering it.

I have considered changing the power cord but the one provided is balanced. I would like to go into a 10gauge cord but it really is at the bottom of the list for upgrades for me. I have found that the RM-20 relaxes the demand and in some respects replaces the need for high end power cords out to my components now. As these cords basically try and mimick what this unit does so well, and thats to provide good AC delivery. Of course there is noise rejection that a cord offers but the ac delivery isnt a big concern. When i got this i ditched all my Expensive Shunyata cords and downgraded since i got alot of the same performance from my blue circle and gutwire cables. BTW gutwire work real nice between the torus and receiving components. where my Shunyata were a little to much extension in the HF. I believe lessloss work good too. I dont like how the cryo treated cables sound anymore so i basically go with non cryo.

Go check out some subs now as this unit really makes a big diff in that department also. Subs love the Torus.

I don't believe the stock cord is really balanced in that it has any different characteristics related to wire.  The wire I used for the dedicated run is the same as normal 120V.  It just has two out of phase legs of 120V on it.  I believe the difference is the two connectors have the live and neutral blades on the horizontal instead of the vertical compared to the 120V 15 amp NEMA connectors.  I think any cord will work, as long as the connectors are for 240V NEMA.  I will confirm this and if it's true then I'm going to look in to sourcing the right connectors and I'll find someone to build me a decent cord.  Any cable builder should be able to slap on the different connectors.  I don't want to spend much on it because what if it doesn't make much difference.

I don't have a lot of cords now so I can only do limited listening to the affects of cords plugged in to the RM20 and my limited number of components.  I would not be surprised if decent affordable AC cords do just as well as spendy ones because the AC is so good now.  Who knows, maybe the RM20-BAL is a great way to save money in the long run. 

As for subs, I'm done with upgrades and new toys!  Just have to finalize the music server DAC.

Bryan

werd

Re: Impressions of a Torus RM20-BAL
« Reply #6 on: 12 Jan 2010, 12:45 am »
I don't believe the stock cord is really balanced in that it has any different characteristics related to wire.  The wire I used for the dedicated run is the same as normal 120V.  It just has two out of phase legs of 120V on it.  I believe the difference is the two connectors have the live and neutral blades on the horizontal instead of the vertical compared to the 120V 15 amp NEMA connectors.  I think any cord will work, as long as the connectors are for 240V NEMA.  I will confirm this and if it's true then I'm going to look in to sourcing the right connectors and I'll find someone to build me a decent cord.  Any cable builder should be able to slap on the different connectors.  I don't want to spend much on it because what if it doesn't make much difference.

I don't have a lot of cords now so I can only do limited listening to the affects of cords plugged in to the RM20 and my limited number of components.  I would not be surprised if decent affordable AC cords do just as well as spendy ones because the AC is so good now.  Who knows, maybe the RM20-BAL is a great way to save money in the long run. 

As for subs, I'm done with upgrades and new toys!  Just have to finalize the music server DAC.

Bryan


Hello

the stock is balanced, its 120 10 amps (thats balanced) per side unlike a regular 120v circuit. the stock cables also has a real nice tight fit into the rm20 which i appreciate and is worth noting.

James Tanner

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drummermitchell

Re: Impressions of a Torus RM20-BAL
« Reply #8 on: 8 Jul 2010, 03:59 pm »
                                                                      8) :thumb: 8).

Arno P

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Re: Impressions of a Torus RM20-BAL
« Reply #9 on: 15 Feb 2021, 06:43 pm »
Anyone ever compared Torus and Shunyata side by side?

drummermitchell

Re: Impressions of a Torus RM20-BAL
« Reply #10 on: 17 Feb 2021, 01:39 am »
Years ago I did as I had the hydra 6 and a bunch of 2s and the Torus 15a and 20a.
I won’t go thru what I posted years ago.
The Torus you instantly hear how it substantially improves everything.
Shunyata is like plugging everything into the wall ————-lalalalala.
I’ll go a tad deeper,ever look what’s inside a hydra 6 or the 2’s.
Take a peek on audio10 website and a few others.
Take a look at ALL their components,they are All RIVETED together(wonder why)even their latest and greatest are riveted.
Cosmetics.....perhaps I doubt it.
Didn’t someone from shhhhh say years something like what the market will bear.
I remember one wire in the 6 nobody could figure out what it was suppose to do,basically the wire went Nowhere.
I love the cylinders with the ferrite dust in them.
There is all level of musicians,Scientists or whatever does not mean the are hi level techs.
Quality control,don’t get me going on that.........fake news fake news.
Home audition the two and make up your own mind I did years ago,never looked back,
Wanna be scientific hocus pocus,just cause they say they are does not make them an expert or qualified.
Let me hear the proof,no chit chat ...live proof,no hype.
Torus,Bit they are there for U to hear and be the judge.

Arno P

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Re: Impressions of a Torus RM20-BAL
« Reply #11 on: 28 Feb 2021, 12:56 pm »

I love the cylinders with the ferrite dust in them.


Is it sure that it's Ferrite in them?