Where's the bass?

Mag · « **on:** 5 Jan 2010, 01:22 am »

We've all done it before, thinking we are getting the best sound possible from our stereo.
Having a MC setup I used digital room correction to calibrate everything. However I had to turn the sub volume down to get the thing to work. I just assumed that having gotten it to work that the sound was optimally adjusted.

The other day for some reason I forget, I wanted to see what I had the speaker volumes set at. That's when I discovered the sub was at like -10. So I put it back to full power 0 like I had before way back last year. Holy crap, now that's bass!!

Mad Mr H · « **Reply #1 on:** 5 Jan 2010, 10:58 am »

This is a very personal setting.........

I work in commercial audio where many venues want that chest thumping, trouser flapping bass line

and if I turned the HF amps off no one would notice

For 2ch bass wants to be intergrated and I find many have a sub set way to high, if you know you can hear it, its to loud. Many will say 2ch is not 2+.1

For MC this does also seem to matter which film you watch, and to hear the bass is often correct, so you have to enter a different mind set in MC mode.

Although the 2ch guy will have an organ track that plays real low, the MC film will have a soundtrack that deliberatly tries to shake foundations with a 9hz sine wave - War of the Worlds !!! and others.......

For those with a 2ch / MC room in one different settings are required, And also a different appraoch to the audio.

At home I miss the use of 18" & 24" subs, With Infra Subs for that final few Hz

But I think I have had to grow up and be more sensible.........

OK - So "sensible" means different things to different people.

Mag - I like your style with the bass aa

I very much like that you try different things.

With your MC system I think you have five front speakers Far L, L, C, R, far R is that correct?

If so are the Far L & R raised above the L & R - This seems to be the most recent 9.1 MC style setups.......

In commercial applications there are times when "HF Pods" are flown (Mounted) over the audience to give more spacial sound, this may not seem correct for many but its a different style of audio.

Mag - What sub do you use?

werd · « **Reply #2 on:** 5 Jan 2010, 03:36 pm »

I think he's typed Velodyne CHT 10 ...... HAHA back at ya MMH....

Mad Mr H · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Jan 2010, 04:18 pm »

Quote from: werd on 5 Jan 2010, 03:36 pm

I think he's typed Velodyne CHT 10 ...... HAHA back at ya MMH....

In my defence your honour you dont see the signature in reply mode.......

But ya got me

15 all......... next serve aa

Mag · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Jan 2010, 05:15 pm »

My set up has evolved over the years. The configuration looks pretty much the same as what's posted in the Gallery. But I hooked the speakers to the amps differently to accomadate the 3B SST/2.

What I'm doing is probably a cardinal sin. I only have so many pre-outs on the av/receiver otherwise I would have the Bryston 2B/LP in the set up.

I have a center channel and rear channel speaker hooked to the 3B ST. The rear channel reflects off the front wall. I found this makes vocals sound slightly more fuller. Then I have the Studio 100's and B&W 601's connected to the 3B SST/2. The 601's are on a shelf at about 5' height. This gives the highs a vertical height as well as broadening the center stage sound to fill a perceived gap in the soundfield having to space the speakers far apart to accomadate the room.
I have the Monitor 9's and CV L8's stacked on top, in the far left & right corners. Both these are wired to the 3B SST. Then I have the Studio 20 placed directly above the 100's hooked to the Yamaha front speaker outputs. I have this reflecting off the rear wall, it could also face the front wall.I found that this helped in making it difficult to locate speakers, as being able to locate speakers ruins the seemless soundstage. Also speakers are spaced 2' apart to reduce speaker location and fill perceived gaps in the soundstage. Played in MC stereo it's L,L,L,L,L,C,BC,R,R,R,R,R Sub, CHT 10".

Mag · « **Reply #5 on:** 5 Jan 2010, 05:20 pm »

Correction, the CV L8 are connected to the presence outputs. They don't do much but where necassary for the YPAO to work.

Napalm · « **Reply #6 on:** 9 Apr 2010, 06:25 pm »

Mag,

Anything smaller than 15" is a tweeter. I can see you're running an odd setup of some 20 tweeters with no bass driver whatsoever.

Nap.

Mag · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Apr 2010, 06:57 pm »

Quote from: Napalm on 9 Apr 2010, 06:25 pm

Mag,

Anything smaller than 15" is a tweeter. I can see you're running an odd setup of some 20 tweeters with no bass driver whatsoever.

Nap.

Yeah, you're right. I heard 15" speakers in a night club before the band played. That's bass with good character sound that I don't get with my speakers.

Being that I have a long narrow room, I got tired of the narrow soundstage and wasn't getting proper stereo imaging, that others had discribed. So that's when I switched to using the long wall. Initially I was trying the concept I seen in a mag, that had large bass woofers placed perpendicular to the side of listening position, with tweeters placed in the front.

Mag · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Apr 2010, 07:14 pm »

This was of course a modification using bookshelves with tweeters and woofers. This was much wider soundstage and I kept the setup for quite awhile tweaking it to the room.

Eventually I felt I wasn't using my Studio 100's to their full potential. So I moved them from the side to the front wall and I was blown away by the wall of sound I was now getting with all speakers placed on the front long wall.

I tweaked it further with careful speaker placement to fill holes in the soundstage for coherent seemless soundfield. And to reduce speaker localizing.

I was playing Blue Man Complex cd the other day. One of the best recordings I've heard on cd. I had the volume approx. 95 DB. I went upstairs to get some coffee, I could feel the foundation of the house shake. Now that's bass!

rob80b · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Apr 2010, 07:29 pm »

Quote from: Mag on 5 Jan 2010, 05:15 pm

What I'm doing is probably a cardinal sin. I only have so many pre-outs on the av/receiver otherwise I would have the Bryston 2B/LP in the set up.

I have a center channel and rear channel speaker hooked to the 3B ST. The rear channel reflects off the front wall. I found this makes vocals sound slightly more fuller. Then I have the Studio 100's and B&W 601's connected to the 3B SST/2. The 601's are on a shelf at about 5' height. This gives the highs a vertical height as well as broadening the center stage sound to fill a perceived gap in the soundfield having to space the speakers far apart to accomadate the room.
I have the Monitor 9's and CV L8's stacked on top, in the far left & right corners. Both these are wired to the 3B SST. Then I have the Studio 20 placed directly above the 100's hooked to the Yamaha front speaker outputs. I have this reflecting off the rear wall, it could also face the front wall.I found that this helped in making it difficult to locate speakers, as being able to locate speakers ruins the seemless soundstage. Also speakers are spaced 2' apart to reduce speaker location and fill perceived gaps in the soundstage. Played in MC stereo it's L,L,L,L,L,C,BC,R,R,R,R,R Sub, CHT 10".

Hi Mag

Maybe not a cardinal sin but unorthodox, with sooo many drivers from soo many speakers in a narrow space, base cancellation is inevitable. I'd try one set with your sub and play around with the polarity or phasing then slowing add everything else.

Robert

Napalm · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Apr 2010, 07:39 pm »

I'm always amazed when seeing >$10.000 "Hi-Fi" "Hi-End" "Hi-Def" "state-of-the art" speakers with "bass" drivers of no more than 8".

All this when a typical bass guitar speaker uses 12" or 15" drivers.

Nap.

Mag · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Apr 2010, 08:00 pm »

>>Maybe not a cardinal sin but unorthodox, with sooo many drivers from soo many speakers in a narrow space, base cancellation is inevitable. I'd try one set with your sub and play around with the polarity or phasing then slowing add everything else.

Robert<<

That's possible, but I get very articulate bass at the sweet spot in Mch stereo. Which dsp the bass different than 2 ch stereo.
I can easily switch to just 2 channel stereo. Which is okay, just doesn't have the wide spacious soundstage that I've come to enjoy. The bass in 2 channel seems a tad boomy with my SST/2, which I attribute to the pre-amp av/receiver. With the prior SST amp there wasn't any bass boom.

Napalm · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Apr 2010, 08:08 pm »

Mag,

If your listening space is located in the basement then here's a nice idea:

http://www.royaldevice.com/customita3.htm

The only way to make a pipe organ concert sound realistic

If you're on the first floor than you may consider a sunk subwoofer.

If you're on the second floor you're out of luck.

Nap.

Mag · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Apr 2010, 08:48 pm »

That looks like a great idea,

out of my budget though. The closest thing to pipe organ I have is ELP.

I live in an old house with paper thin walls. So I had to move the audio to the basement in order to contain the sound. I thought the concrete walls were going to be a problem. But it's just more lively and I was acheiving the same perceived volume with 5 db less at about 85 db. However I'm back up to an average volume of 92-95 db.

rob80b · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 Apr 2010, 11:21 pm »

Well Mag

Definitely time to retire that CHT10 then and get yourself a nice 15" or larger sealed sub, check out the AVSForum http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=113. I'm not going to recommend which model because there are so many good ones out there, and a lot of bad ones so do your home work. But to move air you need a large transducer, no way around it.

Robert

rob80b · « **Reply #15 on:** 9 Apr 2010, 11:28 pm »

Quote from: Mag on 9 Apr 2010, 08:00 pm

That's possible, but I get very articulate bass at the sweet spot in Mch stereo. Which dsp the bass different than 2 ch stereo.
I can easily switch to just 2 channel stereo. Which is okay, just doesn't have the wide spacious soundstage that I've come to enjoy. The bass in 2 channel seems a tad boomy with my SST/2, which I attribute to the pre-amp av/receiver. With the prior SST amp there wasn't any bass boom.

Which is why I recommend a sealed sub, better control, articulation and slam. If you like Velodyne, they make some of the better sealed subs and you should have no problem finding a used HGS15/18, DD or even a SPL1500R.

Robert

Napalm · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Apr 2010, 05:30 pm »

Mag,

Also, is your setup firing on the long or short axis of the room?

I have a pair of Studio 100's (V.5) installed on the short wall of a 12x24x9 room. They are a bear to position for stereo as such.

Basically what happens in my room is that I have to contain them within 24" of the short wall. As soon as I bring them further inside, it sounds like I'm in a sewer. Plus the soundstage gets FUBAR, bass is behind the speaker plane, midbass in front, mids back, treble in front with ringing. Very interesting but unbearable for more than 15 minutes. Also I have to keep them wide apart, otherwise the soundstage colapses to a point (like you're listening to mono recording). Which is another difficult task due to the radiation pattern of their tweeters. So if I get too close to lateral walls I will definitely get more reflected than direct sound in the treble. Nice for symphonic music but unusable for jazz and vocals.

Now I've tried some other speakers in that room and they don't have this issue.

I'd try to disconnect all the other speakers and listen what the 100's are doing.

Nap.

vegasdave · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Apr 2010, 08:16 pm »

Quote from: Napalm on 9 Apr 2010, 07:39 pm

I'm always amazed when seeing >$10.000 "Hi-Fi" "Hi-End" "Hi-Def" "state-of-the art" speakers with "bass" drivers of no more than 8".

All this when a typical bass guitar speaker uses 12" or 15" drivers.

Nap.

I know! And when I criticize that approach to speaker design on other boards, the other members get all riled up about it! lol.

Mag · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Apr 2010, 08:22 pm »

My room is similar to yours at 11'x25'x7' with rafters. See Gallery for photos.
I have the 100's on the long wall about 8' apart. This is to accomadate TV, and they would be to close to listening chair spaced closer together. This works except for the perceived gap in the middle soundstage being so wide apart. That is why I have bookshelves place 2' to the inside, to fill this gap. Also the bookshelves couple with the center speaker, widens the center stage image and allows for seemless intergration with the 100's. There is a fairly good phantom image without the center channel. The center channel however gives a much stronger center stage image. So you can do without the center channel in 2 channel stereo.

With MC stereo the extra surround speaker in the corner of the room, gives a noticable wider soundstage over 2 channel stereo.

Mag · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Apr 2010, 08:27 pm »

Part II

The problem with this was another perceived gap in the soundstage as well as speaker localizing. This was solved by placing another speaker in between to reflect off either the back or front wall to kinda smear sound boundaries. Having an av/receiver makes this work because of time delays and having individual speaker settings.

The idea is to try and get all the speakers on either the left or right to sound like one wide speaker and not 5.