Another upgrade, Bi-amp question

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adol290

Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« on: 3 Jan 2010, 10:13 pm »
I just read the topic by SFOX(about Bi-amping). I have some other questions and I do not
 want to hijack his thread.
 

I have also being looking at bi-amping my EB1i's, or upgrading my amps.

I currently using a 4B-SST2 and Tri-wiring to my EB1i's.


I am wondering which of the following senerios would give me the best sound.


a) Upgrade to 2 7b-SST2's and Tri-wire the EB1i's.

b) Buy another 4b-SST2 and Vertical Bi-amp.
     On each amp run the wires to each speaker as follows:
     1 wire to the Low frequency.
     Bi-Wire to the Mid and High frequency.

c) Buy another 4b-SST2 and run each bridged and Tri-wiring into the EB1i's.
   Though, i assume this would be the less desirable option. 


Daniel Datchev

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #1 on: 3 Jan 2010, 11:05 pm »
Hi adol290,
I don`t know what you have bought first, the speakers or amplifier.
If the speakers were the first you had`t buy the amplifier.
If it was the amplifier, then why did you buy such a big speakers.
I know that Predrag is running EB1 with 7B-SST.
According to Vanderstein speakers maker passive bi-amping is waste of money.
So my suggestion is to buy a pair of 7B-SST2.
Daniel

adol290

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #2 on: 4 Jan 2010, 01:01 am »

I bought the amplifier first.

A few months later the dealer offered me a great price on the EB1i's, and i couldn't resist.

I asked at that point if the 4B would be enough, and he said yes.




Sasha

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 559
Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #3 on: 4 Jan 2010, 01:27 am »
My experience was that it was better to drive passive speakers with one large amplifier rather than bi-amp with lesser amplifiers. I came to this conclusion using PMC IB2 driven by 7B SST as opposed to by-amping that involved 4B SST.
Also my experience was that there is no such thing as too much power.
Finally my experience was that truly active speakers when compared to their exact passive counterpart bring the largest performance increase that could not be matched by any amplification with passive ones.
So I would say scenario a) is the best one.

Mad Mr H

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #4 on: 4 Jan 2010, 02:56 pm »
According to Vanderstein speakers maker passive bi-amping is waste of money.
So my suggestion is to buy a pair of 7B-SST2.
Daniel

Did you mean Vanderstein? or Vandersteen?

I did google but only found Vandersteen.......From that info I found your post is not backed by info from the Vandersteen site....

Model 3a, 5a and 7 are all BI AMP by definition, the bass amp is in the cabinet.

Model 2ce Signature II built on the companys understaning since 1977 I quote

"The crossover is engineered for bi-wiring with a stereo amplifier or passive
vertical bi-amplification with two identical stereo amplifiers."

If I have looked up the wrong speaker company then plase forward correct link, But what I have checked supports the "bi Amp" way of life.


Mad Mr H

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #5 on: 4 Jan 2010, 03:18 pm »
I have also being looking at bi-amping my EB1i's, or upgrading my amps.
I currently using a 4B-SST2 and Tri-wiring to my EB1i's.
I am wondering which of the following senerios would give me the best sound.


a) Upgrade to 2 7b-SST2's and Tri-wire the EB1i's.

b) Buy another 4b-SST2 and Vertical Bi-amp.
     On each amp run the wires to each speaker as follows:
     1 wire to the Low frequency.
     Bi-Wire to the Mid and High frequency.

c) Buy another 4b-SST2 and run each bridged and Tri-wiring into the EB1i's.

My thoughts...

c) This has been tried by several of us and brought reduced bass response - That can be speaker related (MB2's tested). BUT if you went for b) then c) becomes a no cost option and gives cope for you to try things.

Between a) and b)

a) is my answer.

In addition I would move the amps very near to the speakers.


IF your final intention is to have a fully active system (one  day) then best value for money is to keep the 4B you have already unless you can recoup that investment , adding a 4B or pair of 7B will both be useful in future, Selling the 4B only to want it back in the future is not alwas value for money.

Direct answer to the question a) , Thinking ahead b) could offer better long term value for money.

I try and think of things in building blocks with an aim towards a final ultimate system even if I think I will never achieve it, in the hope this reduces value lost in buying/selling on route to the goal......

Not sure I helped !!!

Andy.

Daniel Datchev

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #6 on: 4 Jan 2010, 04:04 pm »
My apologies about the name of the company. It is in fact Vandersteen and here is a quote from their site and link: http://www.vandersteen.com/vandersteenfaqs.htm
What is bi-wiring and what are the advantages?

Bi-wiring uses two separate sets of speaker cables to connect a single pair of loudspeakers to an amplifier. Coupled with a crossover designed specifically for bi-wiring, it offers many of the advantages of bi-amplifying the speakers with two separate amplifiers without the cost and complexity of two amplifiers.

We began experimenting with bi-wiring back in the early '80s, an era when horizontal bi-amplification was considered the ultimate way to drive quality loudspeakers. (Horizontal bi-amplification used one amplifier to drive the low-frequency section of a speaker and a second amplifier to drive the high-frequency section.) We noted that speakers sounded better when bi-amplified by two amplifiers than when driven by a single amplifier. Surprisingly, this superior performance was evident even when the speakers were bi-amplified by two identical amplifiers at a low volume level and the amplifiers were each driven full-range without an electronic crossover. We initially believed that the double power supplies and other components of two amplifiers were responsible for the improvement, however building amplifiers with twice the power supply and doubling-up on other critical components failed to provide the bi-amplification benefit.

So we looked at the speaker wires. With two amplifiers, bi-amplification used two sets of speaker cables so we experimented with doubling-up the speaker wires and with larger wire. Neither duplicated the bi-amplification improvements. Then we considered that in a bi-amplified system, one set of wires carries the low-frequencies and the other set of wires carries the high-frequencies. We modified a speaker's crossovers to accept two sets of cables and present different load characteristics to each set so that the low-frequencies would be carried by one set of wires and the high-frequencies by the other set of wires. Finally we heard the sonic improvements of bi-amplification with a single amplifier.

Additional experiments with a Hall Effect probe revealed that high-current bass frequencies created a measurable field around the wires that expanded and collapsed with the signal. We believe that this dynamic field modulates the smaller signals, especially the very low level treble frequencies. With the high-current signal (Bass) separated from the low-current signal (Treble) this small signal modulation was eliminated as long as the cables were separated by at least an inch or two. (To keep the treble cable out of the field surrounding the bass cable.)

The crossovers in Vandersteen bi-wirable speakers are engineered with completely separate high-pass and low-pass sections. The bass inputs pass low-frequencies to the woofers, but become more and more resistive at higher frequencies. The treble inputs pass high-frequencies to the midrange and tweeter, but become more and more resistive at low-frequencies. The output from the amplifier always takes the path of least resistance so deep bass frequencies go to the bass input (Low impedance at low-frequencies) rather than to the treble inputs (High impedance at low frequencies). For the same reason, treble frequencies go to the treble input (Low impedance at high-frequencies) rather than to the bass inputs (High impedance at high-frequencies). At the actual crossover frequency, the output from the amplifier would be divided equally between the two inputs as they would both have the same impedance at that frequency. Because of the different reflected impedances of the cables, the crossover between the woofer and midrange actually occurs at the wire ends where they connect to the amplifier.

The benefits of bi-wiring are most obvious in the midrange and treble. The low-current signal to the midrange and tweeter drivers does not have to travel on the same wire as the high-current woofer signal. The field fluctuations and signal regeneration of the high-current low-frequencies are prevented from distorting or masking the low-current high-frequencies. The back EMF (Electro-Mechanical Force) from the large woofer cannot affect the small-signal upper frequencies since they do not share the same wires.

The effects of bi-wiring are not subtle. The improvements are large enough that a bi-wire set of moderately priced cable will usually sound better than a single run of more expensive cable.

All the cables in a bi-wire set must be the same. There is often great temptation to use a wire known for good bass response on the woofer inputs and a different wire known for good treble response on the midrange/tweeter inputs. This will cause the different sonic characteristics of the two wires in the middle frequencies to interfere with the proper blending of the woofer and midrange driver through the crossover point. The consistency of the sound will be severely affected as the different sounding woofer and midrange drivers conflict with each other in the frequency range where our ears are most sensitive to sonic anomalies. The disappointing result is a vague image, a lack of transparency through the midrange and lower treble and a loss of detail and clarity.

Some of the benefits of bi-wiring are from the physical separation of the high-current bass and low-current midrange/tweeter wires. So-called bi-wire cables that combine the wires in one sheath do not offer the full advantages of true bi-wiring although they may be an excellent choice for mono-wiring the speakers.

The cables should all be the same length. This is not due to the time that the signal takes to travel through a cable, but rather that two different lengths of the same cable will sound different. If the cables connecting one speaker are a different length than the cables connecting the other speaker, the resulting difference in sound between the two speakers will compromise the imaging and coherence of the system. If different lengths of cable are used for the bass and midrange/tweeter inputs of the speakers, the effects will be similar to those experienced when using two different cables as described above.

Since short runs of speaker cable sound better than long runs, consider placing your electronics between the speakers rather than off to one side. If for convenience or aesthetic considerations, the electronics must be located a considerable distance from the speakers, it is usually preferable to place the amplifier between the speakers and use long interconnect cables and short speaker wire.
Daniel

predrag

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #7 on: 4 Jan 2010, 06:08 pm »
Hello adol290 and welcome to this forum!

Good question from you.
First, what is exactly what you want to achieve and what is your listening environment?
Here is my personal opinion that many may not agree with.
Had untill a year ago 4BSST. At first it was driving OB1 and later EB1i.
In my eyes 4B SST is mother of all amps and a real Bryston with all it`s fine attributes.
I think 4B SST is capable of driving easily either of these two PMC`s.
EB1i is essentially IB1 in floorstanding box. It is relatively easy to drive (for 4B SST and up).
To reach the ultimate I thing we should go to active systems. I would agree here with Sasha and Mad Mr H.
Recently had over one weeked a pair of MB2S.
I was surprised with it`s midrange performance (not bass performance what I expected first).
Many studios have combination 4B SST driving MB2 or IB2!
With 7B SST2 you will achieve at little more control but at a double price. 
I bought 7`s because it was a good trade-in deal and a good basis to switch to MB2 or BB5 some day.
We are all a littlebit spoiled Bryston kids and suffer from chronical upgrade disease don`t we? lol
Try to get a pair of 7`s or another 4B home for a listen and judge by your ears!
I don`t think you will go wrong with either of three mentioned options.

Keep us informed about your upgrade! I`m curious. :thumb:


 

werd

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #8 on: 4 Jan 2010, 07:24 pm »
Hello

Those speakers are 4ohm. I would try bi-wiring the sub and midrange drivers and using jumpers to the highfreq from the mids, with either the 7B or 4B. Those crossovers can handle lots of power for really low impedance drops so increasing the gauge to the low freq isnt a bad idea with bi-wirng.... at the very least.

Mad Mr H

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #9 on: 4 Jan 2010, 07:48 pm »
Hi,

Daniel your post of

"According to Vanderstein speakers maker passive bi-amping is waste of money."

Seems far from what they are actually saying............

They are talking about how they moved forward and changed single input speakers into "bi wire" speakers.

At no point do they say "Don't Bi amp" a speaker, or the stronger way you mentioned it.

In addition to that the "bi wire quote" you mention seems to go against what they actually produce for their own speakers..........

"The cables should all be the same length. This is not due to the time that the signal takes to travel through a cable, but rather that two different lengths of the same cable will sound different. If the cables connecting one speaker are a different length than the cables connecting the other speaker, the resulting difference in sound between the two speakers will compromise the imaging and coherence of the system. If different lengths of cable are used for the bass and midrange/tweeter inputs of the speakers, the effects will be similar to those experienced when using two different cables as described above."

So ALL cables should be the same length and type
- this is for bi wire or bi amp systems based on the above quote.

SO how could you do that with their speakers ???

3a,5a ad 7 (Speaker type) ALL have internal bass (only) amplifiers, so how could you expect the owner to get the same length speaker cable, same type ???  As is clear is required from their quote ???

I dont think they sell amps either so how could you match gain, tone etc of their class B amps ?

As these speakers have internal bass amps you MUST by definition Bi Amp the speakers I mention that they build......

Their site goes on to say

"What wire should I use?

We receive at least one call a day asking what wire to use with Vandersteen speakers. Often the callers want to know what wires were used in designing the speakers or what the internal wires are.

Actually, neither the design wire nor the internal wire has any bearing on choosing the wire that is best for your system. During design, we connect the loudspeakers with a resistively loaded bus bar that can be set to simulate different wire lengths without contributing any inherent sonic character of its own to the sound. None of the internal wires in a Vandersteen speaker carry a full-range signal, so they are each individually engineered as part of a tuned-loop with the driver and crossover they connect. The woofer, midrange, and tweeter each use different wires selected for their characteristics coupling the particular driver to the crossover. If any of the wires were changed, the relationship between the crossover and the driver that wire connected would have to be adjusted."

I have now spent several hours looking over the site you mention - There are a number of answers given by the site that dont agree with each other........

I am open mined, I have not just dismissed this site - BUT I am afraid I would NOT quote anything from that site and from what I have read I would NOT consider their products.

Each to his own, They are not for me !!! - Flame suit on !!!

Mad Mr H

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #10 on: 4 Jan 2010, 07:50 pm »
Hello

Those speakers are 4ohm. I would try bi-wiring the sub and midrange drivers and using jumpers to the highfreq from the mids, with either the 7B or 4B. Those crossovers can handle lots of power for really low impedance drops so increasing the gauge to the low freq isnt a bad idea with bi-wirng.... at the very least.

System is already tri wire if I read post one correctly.

werd

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #11 on: 4 Jan 2010, 08:11 pm »
System is already tri wire if I read post one correctly.

ok i see that. Go for the 7B's in tri-wire since the 7B's have the upgraded transformer. And keep to one amplifier per side. Or if you going to stack the 7B's it might be worthwhile looking at the 14B and save $ on the extra power cord.

Daniel Datchev

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #12 on: 4 Jan 2010, 09:46 pm »
Hi Andy,
I quote the Vandersteen site with the only purpose to share my opinion about passive multi amplifying.
If I can afford an active speakers or system from PMC I would buy it and in only this case I would use multi amplifying the speakers.
That is my understanding about this subject.
Daniel

adol290

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #13 on: 5 Jan 2010, 01:58 am »
Thanks for all the suggestions.

I talked to my dealer today and he will give me a great price for my 4B-SST2
 as a trade in, for the 7b's.

BUT.....

He also suggested trading my 6B-SST2, and get  3 - 7B-SST2's   :o

My center channel is a CB6i. I am not sure if a 7B is overkill for that speaker.

I definitely am going for 2 7B's. DO I get the third  :scratch:

Unless I will the lottery, it will be a long,long time before I will be able to afford upgrading the speakers. If at all. 


   
« Last Edit: 5 Jan 2010, 03:51 am by adol290 »

Mad Mr H

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #14 on: 5 Jan 2010, 11:44 am »
Hi,

There is another option that in your excitement may have been missed and my thoughts so far have been 2ch based without thought of 6B/CB6i

So I would offer the following suggestion......

Buy a pair of 7B SST2

KEEP the 4B SST2 and run the center Bi-Amp with it

Part ex the 6B SST2


In keeping the 4B you loose no money on it, it is the most sort after 2ch amp you will never struggle to sell it. The 6B is harder to sell.

You can always part ex the 4B later if required.

WHY? do I suggest 7's for the L & R and now bi amp with a 4 on the C?
I am considering several things here, In buying a pair of 7B you can hook one up to the center and see what you think AFTER phase one of your purchase (2x7), in keeping the 4B it can always be moved to run the rear pair at a later date. The 6B is less versatile NOW you are going for 7B's, When you bought it it was an excellent choice. 

In 2ch I feel there is an advantage in the single 7 vs bi amp 4B. In the C of a Multi Ch (MC) setup I feel there is less advantage and the existing 4B has a good role to play on the C.

I dont want to spend your money but the final option of 3x7 LCR and 4 for rears is a journey to consider, and my option above completes a stage of that journey...........

In both my option above and your option in the previous post -
What will run the rear speakers ???

Or are we to excited to consider them at the mo?

Mad Mr H

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #15 on: 5 Jan 2010, 11:55 am »
Post above is more important but also consider this.......

I see you have the Integra 9.8 (aka Onkyo 885 in europe I think)

I have the Onkyo 886 (aka Integra 9.9 I think) same as the 9.8 with added video calibration feature and direct bypass - I am in the UK so specs are slightly different........

Its excellent value for money, ticks all the format boxes,Balanced outs etc. I love it. BUT I am using it as a stop gap. (Balanced XLR in your system I hope)

I would also factor into your current consideration that holding some money back for a possible change of pre/pro might be a good idea - I am not going to rush out and buy the Bryston SP3 when it is born, but it IS the reason I am waiting to change my Onkyo/Integra..........And in fact the reason I bought the Onkyo was as a stop gap until release of the SP3. The Integra is amazing for the value, with excellent quality. But I do think the weak link in both our systems.

What CD / Blu Ray player do you have?  (Or HD DVD for me  :wink:).

Levi

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #16 on: 5 Jan 2010, 01:10 pm »
Don't listen to these guys.  :lol:  Get a pair of 28B and thank me later.  Actually, thank you ears!  :thumb:

adol290

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #17 on: 5 Jan 2010, 02:18 pm »
Mad Mr H

Very good points on the new amp options.

95% of my listening is movies, and I am really into the DVD/BLU-ray concerts.
So I would need the back 2 channels immediately.

So i am down to 2 possibilities.

Buy 3 7B's. Trade in my 6B. Keep my 4B.

Buy 2 7B's. Trade in my 4B. Keep my 6B(harder to sell later).

As for the Integra, I was actually thinking of upgrading to the Integra 80.1. But I then changed my mind
 and decided to do the amps first. Not enough bang for the upgrade cost. I am using XLR's.   

My Blu Ray player is the Marantz BD8002. Their very first one. I waited to see who would win the war.


mclsound

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 646
Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #18 on: 5 Jan 2010, 03:54 pm »
I think a 7b is a little extreme for a cb6,but if you are going to upgrade in the future,Well????

Mad Mr H

Re: Another upgrade, Bi-amp question
« Reply #19 on: 5 Jan 2010, 04:30 pm »
Don't listen to these guys.  :lol:  Get a pair of 28B  :thumb:

You first  :green: