[Yikes]

I didn' accuse anyone, I made the observation that there was Bias. If you can't understand how being "Friends" with a manufacturer can cause  bias then it's useless even discussing it. Simply put, when a friend makes a product it's natural to want that product to be better than its competition. This simple desire causes bias, there's no way it can't. At no point did I say that this bias effected the outcome, just that there was a bias and that it could have influenced the outcome.

In interest of full disclosure I have now purchased a PWD, so I now have a bias (Because we all want our toys to sound good). PS Audio does not walk on water. As an example I disagree with their "Don't use a preamp" with the PWD. IME using any digital volume attenuation negatively impacts the sound. Your discounting of the significance of the various Sampling and Filter options of the PWD and not even trying them is another example of your bias (I've gathered that many here eschew complex features such as the sampling rate and filter options available on the PWD).

My PWD should be here on Thursday, so after about two weeks of break-in I'll begin to experiment with the PWD's many setup options. I've heard the PWD on several occasions, it was good enough that between its sound quality and its features I finally decided to buy one, but in no way do I have the measure of this DAC. It takes at least a week of use (Post Break-in in my own system) to even begin to get the measure of any high performance piece of equipment. It's one problem with such comparisons. There is no thought to system synergy and optimization. The comparison is a tiny snapshot of opinions in one system, on one day. IME unless a person is intimately familiar with a system it's impossible to hear all of the nuance to make a truly valid judgment.

I would suggest a comparison where two or three DAC's are sent to each reviewers homes for a week or two, where each reviewer can listen to them in their own system (That they know best) and come to their own opinions in isolation. This would be an eminently more useful comparison. Instead of one snapshot in one system on one day without isolation (I assume that there was some discussion as the day progressed. People are easily swayed by other peoples opinions) sending the equipment instead to each reviewer would provide multiple snapshots.

In any case I'm done in this thread. I feel that I've been attempting to talk to a Choir (and I'm an Atheist).

Later

Dave, Thanks for the invite. In person there are few Audiofools (I'm an Audiofool) that I don't get along with. On the internet people become much more opinionated and brash, then when you meet them they become much more agreeable. I am not a shrinking violet (Is that the expression?). I am a self confessed curmudgeon. If you don't like me on-line, you won't in person. That being said I'm known the world over as a nice guy.

[dBe]

Dave, Thanks for the invite. In person there are few Audiofools (I'm an Audiofool) that I don't get along with. On the internet people become much more opinionated and brash, then when you meet them they become much more agreeable. I am not a shrinking violet (Is that the expression?). I am a self confessed curmudgeon. If you don't like me on-line, you won't in person. That being said I'm known the world over as a nice guy.

I made that invitation in all sincerity.  I wouldn't have if I didn't mean it.  Don't let the fact that I'm a Christian slow you down, either.  Not my place to judge a man's heart.  I have enough trouble with my own.

There should be a 12 step program for audiogeeks like us... oh, wait: there is - posting on any audio forum.

One thing, though:  I'm not sure there is enough room for two curmudgeons on this forum.  They already have me   

I'll be very interested in your opinion of the PWD.  When I had one in my home it didn't come up to the level of my Cary 306.  It was good, as I have stated elsewhere, but just not excellent in my system which was admittedly optimized for the Cary.
 
Regards,

Dave

[jhm731]

Mr Yikes son.....I concur with Hal's findings above and reported that and more in the original shootout thread. All SPDIF inputs were compromised, thin, and anything but analog sounding. Using the PWD as a preamp, as suggested by the mfg, only exacerbated this weakness. when Cullen and the likes roll out upgrades, those costs and the degree of modification, will validate these findings. They're betting the bank, and this was and still is a DAC product sold with a "promise", that it will be the holy grail with the I2S inputted bridge. The jury is still out, about a year to date, if it merely emulates the sound inputted from it's matching transport, it is compromised in my listening experience. The burned file removes the clock, SPDIF adds it back, NOS DACs take advantage of a good thing, sound cards removed.

tasar-

If you didn't like the PWD, how come you bought two of them?

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=74994.msg704449#msg704449

[Yikes]

Maybe he wanted a different color, and then got tired of waiting for the ever delayed Bridge. I can tell you that if I purchased one with the promise of a Bridge in a few months and close to a year later I was still waiting I'd be a little pissed.

[krikor]

I have been building, listening to and comparing DACs to my reference of some years, a Cary 306-200.  Not a shabby unit.

I'm curious how the Tranquility DAC compares to your Cary 306/200.  I just sold my Cary in anticipation of going to a PC-based solution, and have the Tranquility on my short list (depending in part on how I configure the system and what inputs I will require).

Obviously any comparison will have more variables than just the DACs since the Cary doesn't do USB and the tranquility doesn't do SPDIF... but any insight you can provide would be most welcome.

Gotta say, I'm really missing the Cary 306/200 since I am now relegated to listening to my Squeezebox directly.

Thanks.

[krikor]

I'm also wondering if anyone has done any comparisons using a mac mini to access music via network (wired ethernet in my case).  I see in past posts that external hard drives are preferred for many over internal... perhaps pulling the music from a remote computer has similar benefits?

Oh - and THANKS! for the great efforts all have made to conduct this shoot out, I've found most of the posts very beneficial.

[Danny Richie]

FYI, I spent several days listening to each of the DAC's prior to the comparison. Several, like the Onix and the Neko DAC spent a week or so in my system.

Settings on the PS Audio were what was recommended by the owner.

[Hank]

I'm not sure there is enough room for two curmudgeons on this forum.  They already have me   

As Yosemite Sam would say:  Hold on there, varmint!  This curmudgeon predates you. 

[dBe]

I'm curious how the Tranquility DAC compares to your Cary 306/200.  I just sold my Cary in anticipation of going to a PC-based solution, and have the Tranquility on my short list (depending in part on how I configure the system and what inputs I will require).

Obviously any comparison will have more variables than just the DACs since the Cary doesn't do USB and the tranquility doesn't do SPDIF... but any insight you can provide would be most welcome.

Gotta say, I'm really missing the Cary 306/200 since I am now relegated to listening to my Squeezebox directly.

Thanks.

You are exactly where I am.  We be Bruthas!  Remember that what I am saying is filtered through 62 year old ears, but that still makes the playing field level, at least on my end.  I have been grudgingly moving into the computer audio domain and it has been a real trip.  I have listened to and fiddled with a lot of stuff during this journey and I do not make moves quickly.  I know that Analog is still King, but can't tolerate the volumetric spatial demands of vinyl storage, much less the cost of a good front end. 

What I hear with the NOS Tranquility DAC has a lot in common with the character of analog.  I can't quite wrap my old gray head around it, but there is a sense of continuity... of flow to the music that the Tranquility translates that I like.  It is very different from the Cary in that regard.  The Cary has 8 Burr Brown PCM 1704u DACs and the Tranquility has that one little DACwithnoname and it sounds.... well, to me at least, more musical than the Cary.  Does it have the 'detail' (attach to that what you want) of the Cary?  I'm not sure, yet.  It does have that whispered "listen to me" quality that I like, as I have said before.   From what I have heard I can hardly wait to get it here, in my home, hooked up to my new computer based system to hear what it really does.  I'll report back.

Dave

[jhm731]

"What I hear with the NOS Tranquility DAC has a lot in common with the character of analog.  I can't quite wrap my old gray head around it, but there is a sense of continuity... of flow to the music that the Tranquility translates that I like."

Dear Dave-

Maybe you should look for a smaller DAC, to fit the gray you have left.






A hui hou!

[jimdgoulding]

Dave, my system begins with you, dunnit.  I loves my system. 

[stu]

I thought some of you might be interested in a demonstration/shoot-out that we had this past weekend at the monthly meeting of the Audio-Video Club of Atlanta.  The main purpose of the demo was to show the differences between standard red book digital and high resolution digital, i.e. 24/96-24/192.  Different souces were chosen to show that you can get into high rez without spending a whole lot of money.  Sources included Oppo Blue Ray player, the SE version of that player, a Benchmark DAC-1, and the PS Audio PWT/PWD combo.  My main concern before the meeting was, would we be able to hear the differences in red book and high rez, and the differences in the different sources, in a large room with 30-40 people in it.  The system included an AR tube pre-amp, an EAR tube amp, and a pair of the new Vandersteen 2c Signature II's.  A disc was made for each source of the cuts that were going to be played, so it was just a matter of switching inputs on the pre-amp to hear the cut on a different source.  All sources were volume matched as close as possible before starting.   After the first cut had been played on all sources, it was clear that not only were we able to hear the difference in the red book and high rez versions of the same song, but also each source had a sound that was different from the others.   The music cuts ranged from classical, jazz, and rock to show that all types of music are available in high rez.  After all the cuts were played, the group was asked to pick their favorite source, and more highrez music would be played on that system.  There were some interesting choices.  Some chose the standard Oppo over the SE version.  Go figure.  The winner by a large margin was the PWT/PWD combo.  I heard several comments later that it was not close.  A lot of people picked the PWD being driven by one of the OPPO's as a transport as their second choice, but they were surprised that the PWD did not sound as good with the Oppo as it did with the PWT.  They said the the PWT really made the PWD sound so much better. 

The meeting was quite enjoyable, and was proof to a lot of skeptics that differences can be heard, sometimes easily, between equipment types and software.  As I told a lot of people afterwards, if you can hear a difference in an environment like that, the difference would be magnified in a smaller home setting.

Thanks,
Stu

[roscoeiii]

Stu,

Thanks for that info about the demonstration. Can you say a little about the differences in the compared components' sound? That may be more helpful to us than just learning what the favorite was.

[dBe]

"What I hear with the NOS Tranquility DAC has a lot in common with the character of analog.  I can't quite wrap my old gray head around it, but there is a sense of continuity... of flow to the music that the Tranquility translates that I like."

Dear Dave-

Maybe you should look for a smaller DAC, to fit the gray you have left.






A hui hou!

Oh, man... it looks like I'm napping.  I was actually dreaming of the "perfect system".  Kind of a nightmare, actually.  It never ended, I'm still in that dream.

Dan, you know that I like this picture better, even if my hair is long and unruly:



You can take the boy out of rock and roll, but you can't take rock and roll out of the old geezer.  Now, if I could just keep the arthritis at bay all would be well.

Dave

[dBe]

Dave, my system begins with you, dunnit.  I loves my system.

Great meeting you at LSAF, Jim.  I had too much fun and look forward to it next year.  My cheeks still hurt from laughing and smiling.

I'm glad that you like your BUSS.  Gotta have good A/C to have a good system, eh?

See you next year!

Dave

[pardales]

I thought some of you might be interested in a demonstration/shoot-out that we had this past weekend at the monthly meeting of the Audio-Video Club of Atlanta.  The main purpose of the demo was to show the differences between standard red book digital and high resolution digital, i.e. 24/96-24/192.  Different souces were chosen to show that you can get into high rez without spending a whole lot of money.  Sources included Oppo Blue Ray player, the SE version of that player, a Benchmark DAC-1, and the PS Audio PWT/PWD combo.  My main concern before the meeting was, would we be able to hear the differences in red book and high rez, and the differences in the different sources, in a large room with 30-40 people in it.  The system included an AR tube pre-amp, an EAR tube amp, and a pair of the new Vandersteen 2c Signature II's.  A disc was made for each source of the cuts that were going to be played, so it was just a matter of switching inputs on the pre-amp to hear the cut on a different source.  All sources were volume matched as close as possible before starting.   After the first cut had been played on all sources, it was clear that not only were we able to hear the difference in the red book and high rez versions of the same song, but also each source had a sound that was different from the others.   The music cuts ranged from classical, jazz, and rock to show that all types of music are available in high rez.  After all the cuts were played, the group was asked to pick their favorite source, and more highrez music would be played on that system.  There were some interesting choices.  Some chose the standard Oppo over the SE version.  Go figure.  The winner by a large margin was the PWT/PWD combo.  I heard several comments later that it was not close.  A lot of people picked the PWD being driven by one of the OPPO's as a transport as their second choice, but they were surprised that the PWD did not sound as good with the Oppo as it did with the PWT.  They said the the PWT really made the PWD sound so much better. 

The meeting was quite enjoyable, and was proof to a lot of skeptics that differences can be heard, sometimes easily, between equipment types and software.  As I told a lot of people afterwards, if you can hear a difference in an environment like that, the difference would be magnified in a smaller home setting.

Thanks,
Stu

Can you comment on the differences between hi-rez vs. redbook from the same source?

[Jon L]

it was clear that not only were we able to hear the difference in the red book and high rez versions of the same song, but also each source had a sound that was different from the others.   

Thanks for sharing.  A proper comparison between 16/44.1 and 24/96 (better yet 176.4, 192) of the same song on a revealing system can be a disgusting experience, as one quickly realizes 99% of his CD collection needs immediate update to Hi Res. 

This is also why it bothers me when some people claim 16/44.1-limited spdif or USB implementation is "good enough." 

[satfrat]

Thanks for sharing.  A proper comparison between 16/44.1 and 24/96 (better yet 176.4, 192) of the same song on a revealing system can be a disgusting experience, as one quickly realizes 99% of his CD collection needs immediate update to Hi Res. 

This is also why it bothers me when some people claim 16/44.1-limited spdif or USB implementation is "good enough." 

If it doesn't bother them, why should it bother you?    Not saying you're wrong whatsoever but I say live and let live. It's about individual musical enjoyment and no one should scrutinize anothers perogatives. Worry about your own glass house Jon and let others take care of their own palace. 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[viggen]

Maybe version 2.0 will address high rez. 

I've always preferred NOS dacs.  However, it's been many years since I had a dac comparo.

[Dracule1]

In response to Yikes comments:

I attended the LSAF specifically to hear the Tranquility DAC to see what all the hoopla was about.  I have never personally met Eric Hider before this event, although I have talked to him about his DAC over the phone before the event.  So I can't consider myself a friend of Eric, and I have no loyalty to him or his company.   I have heard the PS Audio PWD/PWT at last years RMAF in their own room.   I recall that PS gear was very clean and clear sounding and was seriously considering the PWD with their soon to be released NAS music library.  However, a friend of mine whose ears I trust turned me onto the Tranquility.  Bottom line, I'm glad I got the Tranquility.  It does several things so right that PS gear lacks.  Mainly, the decay of instruments is so analogue like on the Tranquility but digital on the PS.  The timbre of the instruments is noticeably more natural on the Traquility.  The separation of intruments is very similar between the two.  I think the soundstage may be wider on the Tranquility but I would have to do a direct comparison.  The PS is squeaky clean almost to a fault.  Well, it's all my opinion based on my aural recollection, but don't take this too seriously like all opinions on this thread. Last thing, Eric is a very ethical guy and one of the most helpful people I have met in this hobby.  He actually opened up his DAC and showed me the technology that went into the DAC.  I have to say it is one of the most elegant designs I have seen.  For each component in the chain, he was able to explain why it was chosen based on sound engineering and blinded listening tests.  That's all she wrote.