[Yikes]

Hey, I'm new here, I'm mainly here because I'm researching an upcoming DAC purchase. While Googling the PWD this thread comes up.

After reading this entire thread about a DAC comparison that several members here have been attempting. What I have come away with after reading this thread is that the organizers are:

1) Friends of the manufacturer of the DB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC

2) Have no idea about how to compare products - (Products should be experimented with to determine their optimal configuration and then evaluated that way)

They had no clue as to how the PS Audio PWD was set up or how the many changes available effect its sound. Putting the PWD/PWT on the carpet while other units are placed on isolation shelves shows that they have no concept about vibration control and its significance in a high resolution system. I have absolutely zero doubt that the PWD was not being used to its full potential.


After reading the thread I did some research on the Tranquility DAC, It seems to be another smoke and mirrors product. The only thing that can be determined from DB Audio Labs web site is that the Tranquility has a discrete output and that it's apparently a NOS design. Specifications? We don't need no stinking specifications! As if using pastoral photos instead of photos of the inside of the equipment guarantees that it will sound more like real music. The Tranquility fails on features alone. The lack of substantive information cinches my decision to eliminate it as an option.

That being said I truly appreciate the effort, and found the comparison and this thread a worthwhile read.

Peace.

FYI = I don't own a PWD, although it's high on my short list. 

[sl_1800]

it's a shame all of you could not be there for our comparison.  I assure you one pic of the different units sitting there does not do justice to the comparison.  We are not proffessional reviewers just a group of guys that had a good time listening to these different units.

in your system maybe the outcome would have been different so be sure to arrange a comparison of different units in your own system before purchasing anything, you might be suppprised,i know I was shocked with what I heard.

On another note if the difference I heard between these units could be completely shook up just by what they are sitting on, well I don't want that piece if gear in my system.

[roscoeiii]

Yikes,

You should not dismiss the opionions of the dB DAC out of hand. There are many specific reasons that many here like the DAC. And they have a reasonable trial period that would allow you to try it in your own system, with a considerably cheaper restocking fee than DACs like the Wyred4Sound. That would allow you to see how the DAC works in your system, ultimately the most important consideration.

[Yikes]

I truly appreciate how difficult it is to properly compare two pieces. I actually believe that it's impossible to properly compare more than two units in a given outing. The fact that no effort was given to optimizing the PWD's configuration proves that the comparison was fundamentally flawed.

I'm not a fan of USB as a digital interface. I already own an Exemplar Audio 1.5 TB Music Server that does not use the flawed USB standard for its digital output. So I am looking for a DAC that has AES/EBU and SPDIF and will allow playback of High Resolution files (Including the 24/176.4 Reference Recordings HRx discs). The ability to play high res files in their Native rate is a major plus for the PWD. I also want Balanced outs. Take the upcoming Bridge into consideration and the PWD appears to be 1st on my list.

As far as DB Audio Labs goes; the total lack of substantive information regarding their product is off-putting. The proof is in the pudding as some would say, but I for one would at least like to know something about the pudding before I decide whether it's even worth tasting.

[jtwrace]

What is wrong with USB? 

Yes, I do own a USB DAC...Wavelength Audio Crimson with the Denominator module and couldn't be happier.

Maybe you should look at the Berkeley  http://www.berkeleyaudiodesign.com/products.html for yourself

[HAL]

If the DAC is using an asynchronous USB interface, it should have much less jitter than most S/PDIF interfaces.  The idea is a low jitter clock in the DAC moves the data from the PC to the DAC.  This idea was used in many high end DAC's with a seperate clocking interface with an S/PDIF interface from the DAC and most of these units received very good reviews along the way.  The USB version should be better with higher bandwidth and low jitter clocking.

I had a PS Audio PWD as a DAC in my system without the PWT.  I did not like the sound quality via either the S/PDIF or USB interfaces.  I did optimize the Wolfson DAC filters and other parameters in the process.    Have multiple transports here to try (Oppo and Integra) and was eventually going to a music server, so no need for a PWT.  The unit went back to PS Audio.

Good luck with the DAC search.

 

[Occam]

.....
On another note if the difference I heard between these units could be completely shook up just by what they are sitting on, well I don't want that piece if gear in my system.

SL-1800,

How to go about finding top notch components that aren't sensitive to what they sit on and how that coupling is made? I've been notably unsuccessful in finding components that don't significantly improve from some effort at coupling/isolation. I've found even very inexpensive efforts, e.g. brass cones, arrow points, 'unhappy' balls, Herbies Footers, to be quite different, somethings a significant improvement. And in a given system, the choice of isolation would, for me, determine whether I'd be happy to keep a component in my system, or rid myself of it asap.

TIA,
Paul

[sl_1800]

Occam,

I'm sure all of those tweeks do make differences, but I have never heard it make the type of difference I heard between these units.

[trianglezerius]

I truly appreciate how difficult it is to properly compare two pieces. I actually believe that it's impossible to properly compare more than two units in a given outing. The fact that no effort was given to optimizing the PWD's configuration proves that the comparison was fundamentally flawed.

I'm not a fan of USB as a digital interface. I already own an Exemplar Audio 1.5 TB Music Server that does not use the flawed USB standard for its digital output. So I am looking for a DAC that has AES/EBU and SPDIF and will allow playback of High Resolution files (Including the 24/176.4 Reference Recordings HRx discs). The ability to play high res files in their Native rate is a major plus for the PWD. I also want Balanced outs. Take the upcoming Bridge into consideration and the PWD appears to be 1st on my list.

As far as DB Audio Labs goes; the total lack of substantive information regarding their product is off-putting. The proof is in the pudding as some would say, but I for one would at least like to know something about the pudding before I decide whether it's even worth tasting.

I see that you just joined and this is your second post? was it just to Complain? Because I don't see any value in your thread since you haven't heard the Tranquility DAC. I can speak freely about this since actually heard both side by side in my system and a friends. So as far as your pudding goes trying tasting it and stop analyzing the ingredients.






 

[dBe]

I truly appreciate how difficult it is to properly compare two pieces. I actually believe that it's impossible to properly compare more than two units in a given outing. The fact that no effort was given to optimizing the PWD's configuration proves that the comparison was fundamentally flawed.

I'm not a fan of USB as a digital interface. I already own an Exemplar Audio 1.5 TB Music Server that does not use the flawed USB standard for its digital output. So I am looking for a DAC that has AES/EBU and SPDIF and will allow playback of High Resolution files (Including the 24/176.4 Reference Recordings HRx discs). The ability to play high res files in their Native rate is a major plus for the PWD. I also want Balanced outs. Take the upcoming Bridge into consideration and the PWD appears to be 1st on my list.

As far as DB Audio Labs goes; the total lack of substantive information regarding their product is off-putting. The proof is in the pudding as some would say, but I for one would at least like to know something about the pudding before I decide whether it's even worth tasting.

Mr. Yikes!  Speaking about offputting, the tone of your posts has been terribly so for someone that is new to this forum.  It would appear to the trained or untrained member (trained is BS detection) of this forum that you have a derrogatory agenda that is counter to the discussion.

The USB interface is not as inherently flawed as you would lead some to believe or believe yourself.  SPDIF sucks in comparison for integration to a computer interface and is much more difficult to implement correctly without a lot more parts.  Lots of parts is a very bad thing in audio when it comes to ultimate resolution.

You infer from a couple of pictures and a bit of written description that the tests were inherently flawed to skew the results towards the Tranquility thereby calling the reviewer's integrity into question.  This is a poor move on your part unless all you want to do here is pick crap with everyone.

You make a judgement about a product of which you really know less than little other than what you think.  Again, either the naiivity of the uninitiated (inexperienced) or the tactics of an assassin.  Curious.

I have been building, listening to and comparing DACs to my reference of some years, a Cary 306-200.  Not a shabby unit.  I am a friend of Eric Hider's, Danny Richie and some of the other culprits involved in the DAC shootout.  That does not prevent me from telling them exactly what I think about their products... good or bad.  I have earned that right with them and expect the same from them about my products because I want to build the best product that I can for the dollar.  I'm not afraid to tell someone that I know and respect that what they are doing sounds less than stellar... to me.  Today at the Lone Star Audio Fest I bought a Tranquility DAC from Eric, not because he is a friend, but because after building and auditioning DACs for a year it sounded the best to me for use with my new media computer.

Listen, at least, before you judge.  That is the right thing to do.  Judgemental dismissal with no data is not very edifying to the rest of us in this discussion.

Dave

[Yikes]

Mr. Yikes! Speaking about offputting, the tone of your posts has been terribly so for someone that is new to this forum. It would appear to the trained or untrained member (trained is BS detection) of this forum that you have a derrogatory agenda that is counter to the discussion.

Mr. Yikes was my Dad, I'm just Yikes In my first post I said "I truly appreciate the effort, and found the comparison and this thread a worthwhile read." Did I also criticize the comparisons methodology, yes. It was flawed for two reasons, both of which I stated, and both of which are true. No effort was made to find which mode of the PWD sounded best thereby making the evaluation of the PWD faulty. From reading the entire thread (which I did before posting) it was also obvious that several of the participants are personal friends of the manufacturer of the Winner (Which is true).

Still the comparison piqued my curiosity about the winner, so I decided to do a little research on it. After reading about the Tranquility I said nothing bad about your Friends DAC, I just criticized the total lack of substance (Specifications, Pictures of the build quality, actual technical descriptions) of the DAC on their web page. At no point did I ever criticize its sound quality (Which I would NEVER do without hearing it)

The USB interface is not as inherently flawed as you would lead some to believe or believe yourself. SPDIF sucks in comparison for integration to a computer interface and is much more difficult to implement correctly without a lot more parts. Lots of parts is a very bad thing in audio when it comes to ultimate resolution.

I do fully understand that asynchronous is much better, but I seriously doubt its superiority to a High Quality studio grade card such as the Lynx. I take the surge in USB DAC's to be caused more by a Build What People Want agenda than a Build What's Better agenda. Just imagine; now all these manufacturers can sell these USB DAC's that will make everyones USB equipped computer sound as good, hell!.. Better than a custom purpose built expensive PC. The only Asynchronous USB DAC that I've heard was a DAC1 and it sounded better being fed AES/EBU from a Lynx than USB with the exact same files, so I seriously doubt USB's superiority to a well done properly implemented AES/EBU or SPDIF digital output (Although it very well could be better than the SPDIF or TOS that many Motherboards and inexpensive sound cards have).

 

You infer from a couple of pictures and a bit of written description that the tests were inherently flawed to skew the results towards the Tranquility thereby calling the reviewer's integrity into question. This is a poor move on your part unless all you want to do here is pick crap with everyone.

You make a judgement about a product of which you really know less than little other than what you think. Again, either the naiivity of the uninitiated (inexperienced) or the tactics of an assassin. Curious.

I don't doubt they heard what they said they heard, but the fact is that there was a bias. If you can't see that being friends with the manufacturer will generate a bias then you know nothing about peoples psyche and subconscious minds.

 

I have been building, listening to and comparing DACs to my reference of some years, a Cary 306-200. Not a shabby unit. I am a friend of Eric Hider's, Danny Richie and some of the other culprits involved in the DAC shootout. That does not prevent me from telling them exactly what I think about their products... good or bad. I have earned that right with them and expect the same from them about my products because I want to build the best product that I can for the dollar. I'm not afraid to tell someone that I know and respect that what they are doing sounds less than stellar... to me. Today at the Lone Star Audio Fest I bought a Tranquility DAC from Eric, not because he is a friend, but because after building and auditioning DACs for a year it sounded the best to me for use with my new media computer.

I've been to dozens of shows, and I've seen it many many times. When visiting a friends room everyone will cling to whatever positive aspect that they can. Since exceedingly few rooms actually have good sound (Primarily due to show conditions) it's astounding how few negative comments are ever uttered. It's a polite Lie; very similar to when a Man tells his wife that the Jeans don't make her butt look big. You're being disingenuous if you claim that you always tell the truth. In addition because a person is "Friends" with a manufacturer there is a predisposition to favor a product. I'm not saying that anyone lied, just that there was a bias.

 

Listen, at least, before you judge. That is the right thing to do. Judgemental dismissal with no data is not very edifying to the rest of us in this discussion.

Dave

It's late and I'm tired but the only Judging that I did was that I first determined that the Tranquility DAC doesn't have the features that I require and that its web site is lacking of any technical substance. Based upon the comparison if I were looking for a USB DAC I'd be sure to check out the Tranquility DAC, but I'm not. Then why even post about it? Because I'd hope that db Audio Labs might read my post and realize that many potential customers expect a little more technical information than they provide.

 

That's it. I didn't call the comparison rigged, I called some of the participants Biased, there's a huge difference.

 

Sorry I came in and offended your little clique. It was not my intent. The thread was interesting and I was just commenting on what I read.

 

Peace Out

[ctviggen]

I truly appreciate how difficult it is to properly compare two pieces. I actually believe that it's impossible to properly compare more than two units in a given outing. The fact that no effort was given to optimizing the PWD's configuration proves that the comparison was fundamentally flawed.

I have to agree that it's tough to analyze more than two pieces of equipment like DACs at one sitting.  When I was comparing my modified squeezebox and various DACs, I only compared two at once.  For a comparison between my modified SB and a tube-based CDP, I listened to one part of one song probably 30 times (on each system) before I chose a winner (the modified SB) for that test.  I also ensured that (to the extent possible) I used the same interconnects for each interface.   I also took measurements using a meter to ensure that each device was at the same level.  This also required that I adjust volume when I electronically switched between components, as two different components can have vastly different output levels.  I think it would be quite tough to try this for many DACs at one sitting.

[wilsynet]

Yikes, you said that the only async USB DAC you heard was a DAC1.  Do you mean the Benchmark DAC1?  If so, it is not an async USB DAC.  There are still only a handful of these, and the Benchmark is not one of them.

It would certainly be unfair to paint async USB as inferior to AES and SPDIF using the Benchmark DAC1 as your example.

[jtwrace]

I'd put my async USB dac against any...

[Jon L]

I do fully understand that asynchronous is much better, but I seriously doubt its superiority to a High Quality studio grade card such as the Lynx.

Hey, Welcome to the Audio Circle. 

As far as the asynchronous USB thing, I wouldn't worry about it too much since the DB Audio DAC's USB is not asynchronous anyway. 

[cfcmick]

Yikes,

If you look through the Tranquility DAC thread (below) I think you'll find that Eric at DB Audio is more than forthcoming with info when asked and that many a skeptic were quickly converted once they'd actually HEARD it 

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=74816.0

[Danny Richie]

Well hello Yikes.

You really went out there on a limb in your very first posts there didn't you? It sure makes it look like you have an axe to grind.

I am afraid you have made some false assumptions.

One involving the basics of the formats themselves. You clearly have some learning left to do there, but I am not going to beat you up over it.

The second false assumption is regarding the people that spent their time giving you this information. To me this was slightly out of line. You obviously don't know anything about me or the people that were present for the subjective comparisons.

No, it was in no way flawed, but I'll still respond to your accusations.

It was flawed for two reasons, both of which I stated, and both of which are true.

1) Friends of the manufacturer of the DB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC

That won't get you anywhere with me. If you knew me at all then you know that I tell it like it is regardless. The fact that I have become friends with Eric makes it even tougher for him. For that reason I was even less forth coming with praise for his product in some regards. In most cases comparisons were even more lopsided that it sounds from our descriptions.

If you knew the people in that room then you'd know that their credibility is unquestionable. Not only were the members of the listening panel discerning listeners with ears that I trust, but each one of them are also good personal friends of mine. So I take exception to questioning their character.

Likewise, the same can be said for Eric Hider from db Labs. If he wasn't a man of high ethical standard then I wouldn't be choosing to exhibit with him at an audio show like I just did this past weekend. And I bet any customer that has witnessed Eric's level of customer service will confirm him to be a guy to go the extra mile for his customers in areas well outside of just the DAC that he sells.

2) Have no idea about how to compare products - (Products should be experimented with to determine their optimal configuration and then evaluated that way)

This is also a false assumption. Companies regularly send me product for my comparative observations. I have even hosted several product comparisons for on line magazines in the past. My system is even considered by some to be above reference level in many regards.

And for what its worth, any small tweaks that we didn't do were not going to be make or break determining factors. The differences that we heard were not subtle in most cases. And any setting changes on the PS Audio unit that could have been changed during the evaluation will be slight compared to the other DAC's. I don't think they have any settings for making it sound like crap. No setting change or isolation device is going to take it from being no better than an imported $600 Onix DAC or $150 Music Streamer to being the best DAC in the world. In fact, using it with its CD player/transport/data buffer or whatever you call it, never did sound good to me, and it was also a pain in the rear to use. Hooking it up to the Mac Mini made it a completely different animal. To be honest, that really doesn't say a lot for it, but hey, if you are looking for a bunch of features with whistles and bells then maybe it is for you.

I highly recommend you make your own listening comparisons.

[tasar]

Mr Yikes son.....I concur with Hal's findings above and reported that and more in the original shootout thread. All SPDIF inputs were compromised, thin, and anything but analog sounding. Using the PWD as a preamp, as suggested by the mfg, only exacerbated this weakness. when Cullen and the likes roll out upgrades, those costs and the degree of modification, will validate these findings. They're betting the bank, and this was and still is a DAC product sold with a "promise", that it will be the holy grail with the I2S inputted bridge. The jury is still out, about a year to date, if it merely emulates the sound inputted from it's matching transport, it is compromised in my listening experience. The burned file removes the clock, SPDIF adds it back, NOS DACs take advantage of a good thing, sound cards removed.

[cfcmick]

Quote:

"Well hello Yikes. You really went out there on a limb in your very first posts there didn't you? It sure makes it look like you have an axe to grind."

Yep, it sure does! 

Quote:

"And I bet any customer that has witnessed Eric's level of customer service will confirm him to be a guy to go the extra mile for his customers in areas well outside of just the DAC that he sells."

I don't even own a Tranquility yet (due ONLY to the fact that I don't have the funds right now) but Eric, nonetheless, has been VERY helpful and has promptly replied to several emails and offered great advice and, as I've already stated, I'm not even a customer yet! 

Quote:

"I don't think they (PS audio) have any settings for making it sound like crap."

 

Classic, mate!

[dBe]

I've been to dozens of shows, and I've seen it many many times. When visiting a friends room everyone will cling to whatever positive aspect that they can. Since exceedingly few rooms actually have good sound (Primarily due to show conditions) it's astounding how few negative comments are ever uttered. It's a polite Lie; very similar to when a Man tells his wife that the Jeans don't make her butt look big. You're being disingenuous if you claim that you always tell the truth. In addition because a person is "Friends" with a manufacturer there is a predisposition to favor a product. I'm not saying that anyone lied, just that there was a bias.

 

It's late and I'm tired but the only Judging that I did was that I first determined that the Tranquility DAC doesn't have the features that I require and that its web site is lacking of any technical substance. Based upon the comparison if I were looking for a USB DAC I'd be sure to check out the Tranquility DAC, but I'm not. Then why even post about it? Because I'd hope that db Audio Labs might read my post and realize that many potential customers expect a little more technical information than they provide.

 

That's it. I didn't call the comparison rigged, I called some of the participants Biased, there's a huge difference.

 

Sorry I came in and offended your little clique. It was not my intent. The thread was interesting and I was just commenting on what I read.

 

Peace Out

OK.  Show me a man that says he always tells the truth and I'll show you a liar, no doubt.  I didn't say that.  I will always give my honest opinion about a piece of audio gear, though.  I'm very direct about this kind of thing and I'm married to Gayle, not the audiogeek.  She does have kind of a big butt, but I like her just fine that way.  Yes, I tell her when she asks.  We, too, have an honest relationship.  It happens when someone has been together as long as we have and been through what we have together.  I think that you understand my direct nature by now.

I agree with the Polite Lie syndrome that is prevalent among audiophools.  You have obviously not met Gary Dodd, Danny Richie or Eric Hider.  They understand the value and NECESSITY for open, honest feedback when developing a product.  Their lives depend upon it as does mine.  We all fall in the "tell me what you really think, not what you think I want to hear" camp.  There are actually manufacturers (mostly the small ones, I believe) that possess very high intellectual and professional ethics.  To lump everytone into the Polite Lie group is, as you say, disingenuous at best.

I appreciate your candor in your posts.  I don't find them mean spirited per se, but do find it odd that your only posts were extremely critical and that you made some leaps of judgement without knowing either the product or the players.

Personally, I would love to meet you and have you over to my home and let you listen to the Tranquility (when I do get it) as well as a handful of other DACs and let you be the judge in a setting that lends itself to that atmosphere.  If you are ever in Albuquerque, New Mexico don't hesitate in shooting me a PM and we'll get together and have a real discussion, not one that is depersonalized by the vagueness of the internet.

Besides, I guarantee that you will like our "little clique" if you get to know us   

Again, like you said, Peace Ot...........................

Dave