I'm dyin' here!!! The Great DAC Shootout...

HT cOz · « **Reply #160 on:** 15 Apr 2010, 01:21 pm »

I've really enjoyed reading these reviews and appreciate the additional data points.

Makes me appreciate my own system a little more!

dBe · « **Reply #161 on:** 15 Apr 2010, 02:14 pm »

Quote from: jhm731 on 15 Apr 2010, 05:49 am

Yes, it’s extremely difficult being a small business guy in this economy; I know I’d never buy anything from a guy like you.

I'll try not to lose any sleep over that.

Dave

jtwrace · « **Reply #162 on:** 15 Apr 2010, 02:15 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 13 Apr 2010, 10:21 pm

Next is the USB cable. I have tried a lot of them including some in the $450 to $600 range. The db Audio Labs cable is the best I have used and very neutral sounding. It was used with all DAC's.

Which other USB cables have you tried? Can you do a quick comparison on them?

Danny Richie · « **Reply #163 on:** 15 Apr 2010, 03:06 pm »

Quote

Which other USB cables have you tried? Can you do a quick comparison on them?

Originally Eric Hider sent be a handful of USB's to try. This was back in August or September, and I used various ones off and on through RMAF in Oct. I really don't remember what most of them were and didn't want to know (especially considering the price differences) so as to not allow it to sway my preference.

I setting on a Ridge Street Audio cable (also on loan), and sent the rest back. I then later ordered the Ridge Street Alethias.

Then a customer sent me one of the better cables from Lotus Design group. I can remember which model. I want to say it was in the $400 range.

I then tried the db Audio Labs cable and liked it better than any that I had tried and it was not that expensive at all.

texasphile · « **Reply #164 on:** 15 Apr 2010, 07:59 pm »

I neglected to thank my fellow reviewers and also mention that I really appreciated those who provided the DACs that were reviewed. It is not an easy chore to listen to that many DACs in paired challenges. You have to really keep your ears sharp. The Shoot Out took most of the afternoon and was great fun. I know that many of the people posting to the tread wanted to hear more DACs thrown into the mix, but time rules all and what we had was enough.

I personally have some 24/96 DVD-A and FLAC files at home, but like many (I am *assuming*) listen to 16/44.1 files more than anything else, so that is what was tested.

I hope that you enjoyed reading as much as I enjoyed listening and providing my personal preferences. If one of the DACs piques your curiosity, I believe that most vendors do provide a 30 day trial period as everyone's listening system and room arrangement are different.

As an FYI, back in the January 2010 Shoot Out my top two preferences were the Wolfson Evaluation board run off battery power and the Buffalo ESS Sabre DAC.

Thanks,
Chris

HAL · « **Reply #165 on:** 15 Apr 2010, 08:22 pm »

Chris,
Glad you liked the Wolfson DAC and battery supply. That is the DIY DAC project that I built and sent to Danny and Gary to get some feedback on sound quality. I like the one I have here a lot!

doug s. · « **Reply #166 on:** 16 Apr 2010, 04:36 pm »

Quote from: dBe on 15 Apr 2010, 04:14 am

To me it would be like someone showing everyone that they know pictures of my wife (or yours) in the nude. Mine looks very good clothed and that is all anyone else gets but me.

wait a minute, tho - if your wife were for sale, wouldn't it be normal for someone to want to see pics, if not the real thing, before the "purchase"?

sorry, i yust couldn't resist - the above comment has nothing to do w/the real question at hand - i am firmly on the fence...

doug s.

dBe · « **Reply #167 on:** 16 Apr 2010, 05:30 pm »

Quote from: doug s. on 16 Apr 2010, 04:36 pm

wait a minute, tho - if your wife were for sale, wouldn't it be normal for someone to want to see pics, if not the real thing, before the "purchase"?

sorry, i yust couldn't resist - the above comment has nothing to do w/the real question at hand - i am firmly on the fence...

doug s.

Doug, it is a strange comparison in a strange situation. I guess I just don't understand why someone that is obviously not interested in purchasing one of the DACs in question is making such a big deal out of honoring soemones right to confidentiality. See, for me if a manufacturer chooses to post a million pictures of their product, that's cool. If a manufacturer chooses to not post pictures, that's cool, too. It just seems like the gentlemean has an axe to grind with this site.

I probably wouldn't sell Gayle. If I did I wouldn't post nude pictures. She looks really good, but revealing pictures of a 60 year old woman are just TMI, if you know what I mean.

You could make an offer, though.

Dave

jtwrace · « **Reply #168 on:** 16 Apr 2010, 05:39 pm »

She'll probably sell you first....for scrap

srb · « **Reply #169 on:** 16 Apr 2010, 05:52 pm »

Quote from: dBe on 16 Apr 2010, 05:30 pm

See, for me if a manufacturer chooses to post a million pictures of their product, that's cool. If a manufacturer chooses to not post pictures, that's cool, too.

I think most people have no disagreement with your statement. I think they're just stating the fact that because most manufacturers do post pictures, and that it's become more or less the norm, the manufacturer who cloaks his product in secrecy shouldn't expect to reap the sales numbers of those that don't.

I personally don't see why both sides couldn't be served. Obviously, there is a circuit board with components, a transformer, capacitors, jacks, etc. A picture could certainly be shown with the chip masked, and there would be nothing proprietary revealed, just to showcase the neatness and quality of construction.

I don't even think the website has a photo of the back panel!
Correction: On a second look at the website, I did find a back panel photo on the Specs page.

Some people do small manufacturing as a passion and hobby, and perhaps the actual number of sales is less of a concern than the satisfaction of producing the product.

Steve

dBe · « **Reply #170 on:** 17 Apr 2010, 03:27 am »

Quote from: srb on 16 Apr 2010, 05:52 pm

I don't even think the website has a photo of the back panel!

Some people do small manufacturing as a passion and hobby, and perhaps the actual number of sales is less of a concern than the satisfaction of producing the product.

Steve

Well, I 'don't think' that you have really looked at their website, have you? If you had you would see the pictures of the back and others.

I'm not "some people", nor do I believe Eric is either, that is doing this for satisfaction. My wife and I need to eat and pay bills like most people. There are a lot of assumptions made by audio types about what is or is not a "real business". Somehow small manufacturers are supposed to play by a set of rules established by others concerning business practices. Once again, as small business owners, we are responsible for all of it, from production to sales to cleaning the shop. The buck stops with us. We garner all of the glory and $$$ from our sales and bear the brunt of all of the people that diss our approaches and results without ever actually using our products.

Owning a small business is one of life's overrated little pleasures. Most of us do it because we love what we do and do not want to rely upon other's whims and/or economic conditions for a paycheck. We want to work, not live off of unemployment or being stuck in a boring job. For all of this we get the honor of having someone bitch about not seeing pictures of our innovation and, in my case, years of very hard work. How nice.

Dave

S Clark · « **Reply #171 on:** 17 Apr 2010, 03:55 am »

I really don't get the negativity... Simply put, these guys spent a weekend evaluating dacs and sharing their impressions with the rest of us. It was informative for me, so thanks for the efforts and the info.

dBe · « **Reply #172 on:** 17 Apr 2010, 04:14 am »

Quote from: S Clark on 17 Apr 2010, 03:55 am

I really don't the negativity... Simply put, these guys spent a weekend evaluating dacs and sharing their impressions with the rest of us. It was informative for me, so thanks for the efforts and the info.

Me neither, this took a left turn because of someone that took exception when I said I wouldn't post a picture of the inside of the Tranquility when I get one. All I can say for the guys that did the Shootout is: Thank You. There is a lot of good info in this thread from people that actually did something instead of whine. I learned a lot from them. Thanks guys and thanks to all of the vendors and people that supplied the DACs for the event.

I look forward to hearing Rich's DAC next month. I'll be taking my modded Gigawork DAC to the LSAF. It will be on battery power... thanks to Gary Dodd.

Dave

S Clark · « **Reply #173 on:** 17 Apr 2010, 05:04 am »

Quote from: dBe on 17 Apr 2010, 04:14 am

I look forward to hearing Rich's DAC next month. I'll be taking my modded Gigawork DAC to the LSAF. It will be on battery power... thanks to Gary Dodd.

Dave

I'm looking forward to meeting you there and hopefully learning a bit about diffusers. I'll have a Buffalo Dac that Gary put together on batteries there as well. I know that you'll be busy, but try to make it by the Jr. Audiophile room if you can.
Scott

NewBuyer · « **Reply #174 on:** 17 Apr 2010, 05:43 am »

Quote from: Danny on 13 Apr 2010, 10:37 pm

...we also had a Neko DAC here as well...

Neko DAC: http://www.nekoaudio.com/

Originally one was sent with only balanced outputs and some very inexpensive XLR to RCA cables that really held it back... the cables really weren't helping it...

Cables: http://www.nekoaudio.com/#accessories

So it was returned and another was sent with RCA outputs. Being able to use my higher quality RCA cables from Electra Cable brought it up quite a bit...

I wonder what could have been the issue with those XLR-to-RCA cables? I think Wesley makes them himself - they use Belden 1800F cable and Canare/Neutrik connectors, and are properly wired (XLR pin-1 tied to RCA shield) as appropriate for the D100's rather unique transformer output stage. How odd that they could have possibly held back the D100's performance?

murphy11 · « **Reply #175 on:** 17 Apr 2010, 01:41 pm »

jhm731 you have already stated you will not buy anything from dBe, you don't appreciate his comments about PS Audio, and you want him to post pics of the Tranquility DAC which he won't do, so will you please take any new comments directed to him offline to pm? It is adding nothing valuable to the intent of this thread.

dBe · « **Reply #176 on:** 17 Apr 2010, 03:18 pm »

Quote from: S Clark on 17 Apr 2010, 05:04 am

I'm looking forward to meeting you there and hopefully learning a bit about diffusers. I'll have a Buffalo Dac that Gary put together on batteries there as well. I know that you'll be busy, but try to make it by the Jr. Audiophile room if you can.
Scott

Scott, wild horses couldn't keep me away from that room. I've got to see where those drivers ended up.

On the diffuser end of things, I'm having a heluva time with my fabricator. This has been going on for months and I'm about at my wits end. I hope to have enough to treat the rooms that I've committed to doing. If I can get better than a 75% reject rat I'll hve a chance. We can certainly talk, though

Dave

Danny Richie · « **Reply #177 on:** 17 Apr 2010, 04:01 pm »

Quote

I wonder what could have been the issue with those XLR-to-RCA cables? I think Wesley makes them himself - they use Belden 1800F cable and Canare/Neutrik connectors, and are properly wired (XLR pin-1 tied to RCA shield) as appropriate for the D100's rather unique transformer output stage. How odd that they could have possibly held back the D100's performance?

That was a real entry level cable and it gave a lot up to the higher quality cables I was using in the rest of my system. When he sent one with RCA's it allowed me to use my cables and the quality of playback across the board went up quiet a bit.

saisunil · « **Reply #178 on:** 17 Apr 2010, 04:09 pm »

What I love about Danny and friends is their "maximum bang for the buck" approach - not "cost no object approach." They somehow still end up creating products that don't feel shy hanging with the best and have no excuses hooked up to humble or fancy electronics.

For me, this is a sane way to approach this hobby, especially in the economy

We need more folks like this to let us all enjoy this hobby and connect with music.

Thank you Danny and friends ...
Wish you all the best - to further your work ...

Danny Richie · « **Reply #179 on:** 17 Apr 2010, 04:48 pm »

Hey Guys,

It looks like our comparison is quite the talk over on the PS Audio forum. I'd like to respond to the guys over there with some open offers.

But first let's please put something to rest.

Dave was not impressed with previous PS Audio gear that he had or that he had been into and expressed his opinion on the parts quality used....

Quote

Their part selection was done by accounting with only an eye to the cheapest part acceptable to do the job.

Ryan Cnway of PS Audio stated this regarding Dave's comments...

Quote

Could we use more expensive parts in some cases? Sure

Would more expensive parts result in higher performance? Maybe.

Would more those expensive parts result in a higher retail cost. Absolutely!

Dave is entitled to his opinion and the guys from PS Audio are entitled to choose whatever they want to use to meet the price points that they are trying to stay within. So let's give both of them a break on this one and move past it.

Now, it sounds like the PS Audio guys kind of question our results. And you PS Audio fans please pass this info from this post over to them.

Without question: 1) The PS Audio sound MUCH better being played via USB cable from the Mac Mini. 2) It benefited greatly from plugging it into the Dodd Audio balanced power supply and Uber Buss from PI Audio. As a side note: The Tranquility DAC also benefited from the power conditioning but not to the degree of the PS Audio.

I might also remind that the PS Audio gear was using PS Audio's best HDMI cable and their second best power cables (I think).

So I have two proposals for the guys at PS Audio.

1) I would welcome you to send or bring another DAC and player to be set up any way they want for a second comparison to see for themselves if there is any question to the validity of the results we posted. Yes, send or bring, my house is open to you.

2) Please come down to the Lone Star Audio Fest next month. See info here: http://www.lonestaraudiofest.com/ Rooms are very inexpensive and start at only $99 a night. The size of those room are just a shade smaller then the rooms we exhibit in (standard room) at RMAF. Larger ones are also available. So the only real expense is just getting there. I will have basically the same system on hand that we used in the comparison and they are welcome to bring anything they want into our room for complete comparisons under their control. And, BTW, I have one of the larger rooms.

3) Ryan Conway and Paul McGowen are welcome to come and post here if they like, or propose anything they like.

Another thing to keep in mind. We were not out to get anybody. We did this for fun.