[jhm731]

Dave, I concur with the above. PS hyped their ram buffered re-clocked data stream to I2S output. The I2S DAC was to complete the synergy from the lens loaded transport or lens loaded bridge (yet to be rolled out) which, when attached, would receive a wireless or ethernet wired burned file feed. I beta tested the PWD alone, so had no I2S and found the SPDIF inputs to be "unremarkable", thin and bass devoid. The PWD(PS DAC) has a digital volume control, one the factory purports to excel when the unit is used as a pre-amp with volume settings ideally above 50%. I found, nothing could be further from the truth, that this unit definitely benefitted from a good  "analog" inducing pre-amp. The SRC and filter applications were "non eventful" between settings. So everyone knows, the USB was never factory optimized, no asynchronous or NOS here. USB is not embraced with corporate mindsets at PS. I sent it off to Cullen Circuits whose findings included loose fitting components, flawed sampling circuitry, and compromised output stages. I'm not suggesting, only reporting, but their findings supported my disposition. Basically, PS is betting the bank with their I2S implementation, so it was quite the SURPRISE to hear Danny's report implying a clean powered, USB fed PS DAC(PWD) trumps it's I2S inputs ! Many PWD owners made a bet on a promise, that the undeveloped PS bridge would get them "there". I see no reason its performance would be any better than with the partnered transport, though the bridge is reported to accept higher rez audio ! Since the Uber and Dodd power supply were reported to get the PS DAC USB into Tranquiity territory, it speaks volumes for those products and that front ends are game changers. I look forward to the PS owner's report when the bridge rolls out in June. With a good power supply, will he hear any nuances between USB and I2S ? Yes, that's the $64k question. Further, how will that compare to the NECO approach ?

\

If you didn't like the PWD, how come you bought two of them?

[dBe]

Dave, I concur with the above. PS hyped their ram buffered re-clocked data stream to I2S output. The I2S DAC was to complete the synergy from the lens loaded transport or lens loaded bridge (yet to be rolled out) which, when attached, would receive a wireless or ethernet wired burned file feed. I beta tested the PWD alone, so had no I2S and found the SPDIF inputs to be "unremarkable", thin and bass devoid. The PWD(PS DAC) has a digital volume control, one the factory purports to excel when the unit is used as a pre-amp with volume settings ideally above 50%. I found, nothing could be further from the truth, that this unit definitely benefitted from a good  "analog" inducing pre-amp. The SRC and filter applications were "non eventful" between settings. So everyone knows, the USB was never factory optimized, no asynchronous or NOS here. USB is not embraced with corporate mindsets at PS. I sent it off to Cullen Circuits whose findings included loose fitting components, flawed sampling circuitry, and compromised output stages. I'm not suggesting, only reporting, but their findings supported my disposition. Basically, PS is betting the bank with their I2S implementation, so it was quite the SURPRISE to hear Danny's report implying a clean powered, USB fed PS DAC(PWD) trumps it's I2S inputs ! Many PWD owners made a bet on a promise, that the undeveloped PS bridge would get them "there". I see no reason its performance would be any better than with the partnered transport, though the bridge is reported to accept higher rez audio ! Since the Uber and Dodd power supply were reported to get the PS DAC USB into Tranquiity territory, it speaks volumes for those products and that front ends are game changers. I look forward to the PS owner's report when the bridge rolls out in June. With a good power supply, will he hear any nuances between USB and I2S ? Yes, that's the $64k question. Further, how will that compare to the NECO approach ?

PS Audio gear has always been an enigma.  Although I respect their intentions, they always seem to fall down in application.  I've been inside a lot of PS Audio gear.  Their part selection was done by accounting with only an eye to the cheapest part acceptable to do the job.  That is not how outstanding performance is attained.  I finad that too many companies are attached to the "parts is parts" mentality in audio.  wheteher we like it or not there are superior and inferior parts for audio use.  All caps do not sound the same.  Same goes for resistors and yes, wire too.  I applaud the manufacturer that takes the time and expense necessary to select the best (sonically) part for the job.  PS Audio isn't one.  Too bad.  I like buying American.  That is why a db Audio Labs DAC is in my near future.  Besides, I've heard it and liked it... a lot!

Dave

[jhm731]

PS Audio gear has always been an enigma.  Although I respect their intentions, they always seem to fall down in application.  I've been inside a lot of PS Audio gear.  Their part selection was done by accounting with only an eye to the cheapest part acceptable to do the job.  That is not how outstanding performance is attained.  I finad that too many companies are attached to the "parts is parts" mentality in audio.  wheteher we like it or not there are superior and inferior parts for audio use.  All caps do not sound the same.  Same goes for resistors and yes, wire too.  I applaud the manufacturer that takes the time and expense necessary to select the best (sonically) part for the job.  PS Audio isn't one.  Too bad.  I like buying American.  That is why a db Audio Labs DAC is in my near future.  Besides, I've heard it and liked it... a lot!

Dave

How about you or Danny posting a picture of the inside of the db Audio Labs, so we can see their parts
quality?

[roscoeiii]

Or just take advantage of dB Audio Labs' 30 day return policy and hear how it sounds.

[dBe]

How about you or Danny posting a picture of the inside of the db Audio Labs, so we see their parts
quality?

I personally would never do that.  I think that one has to pay the price of admission to see what is inside or be told it is OK in an open forum to post pictures of other people's intellectual property.  There are many people that would rip off a small company just for sport and more that would do it for money.  I feel that there is an entitlement mentality that says: "It's OK to see what everyone else does."  I do not have that kind of mindset.

Dave

[Danny Richie]

How about you or Danny posting a picture of the inside of the db Audio Labs, so we see their parts quality?

I could not do that either. Having been inside one and changed out the output coupling caps from the Mundorf Supreme's (excellent caps) to the Sonicap Platinum's, I have certainly seen the guts. There was no junk in there. Even the RCA's are really good.

The fact that they didn't skimp on parts quality also showed up in the listening comparisons.

You can always order one and see for yourself.

[low.pfile]

I have great respect for the new guys in audio gear, start ups what have you. But are guys saying that there should never be a published photo of the interior of a component? Isn't it common for most online reviewers to show the internals? I sort of expect it.

Cheers, ed

[S Clark]

I have a pair of modified Eico amps that Gary Dodd redesigned for me.  I have had a couple of AC members ask me to show a photo of what he did.  However, I have not and will not publish a picture showing the modifications without his permission.

BTW, would someone put up a crossover schematic of a Salk HT4 for me?  I'd like to build one and cut Jim out of his intellectual property.   

[dBe]

I have great respect for the new guys in audio gear, start ups what have you. But are guys saying that there should never be a published photo of the interior of a component? Isn't it common for most online reviewers to show the internals? I sort of expect it.

Cheers, ed

Ed, I guess that it is a question of peer respect.  Wide distribution consumer audio gear is one thing.  Limited distribution, individually owned companies that are doing the heavy lifting and designing a better mouse trap, or DAC, is quite another.  I have a respect for those that are trying to make a living by doing the best work that they can with what they have.  Eric and crew are developing proprietary methods of doing D/A conversion and I think that they are entitled to a 'bit' of discretion by others.

My products do not use mainstream technology to achieve the performance that they achieve.  That is why I pot my devices.  I worked hard at building a better filter and it is not my intention to make it easy for someone to rip off my work.  Patent protection only goes so far.  I know from personal experience.

I appreciate the long hours that the guys at db Audio Labs put into the Tranquility DAC more than others, I suppose.

Dave

[srb]

BTW, would someone put up a crossover schematic of a Salk HT4 for me?  I'd like to build one and cut Jim out of his intellectual property. 

That's a poor analogy.  No one has asked for a schematic.  I think most just want to see the fit and finish and gain a sense of the physical quality of the product, beyond a generic project case.
 
And after the Oppo/Lexicon affair, probably just want to reassure themselves that there isn't a circuit board from an HRT Music Streamer II lurking inside.
 
Steve

[jhm731]

Ed, I guess that it is a question of peer respect.  Wide distribution consumer audio gear is one thing.  Limited distribution, individually owned companies that are doing the heavy lifting and designing a better mouse trap, or DAC, is quite another.  I have a respect for those that are trying to make a living by doing the best work that they can with what they have.  Eric and crew are developing proprietary methods of doing D/A conversion and I think that they are entitled to a 'bit' of discretion by others.

My products do not use mainstream technology to achieve the performance that they achieve.  That is why I pot my devices.  I worked hard at building a better filter and it is not my intention to make it easy for someone to rip off my work.  Patent protection only goes so far.  I know from personal experience.

I appreciate the long hours that the guys at db Audio Labs put into the Tranquility DAC more than others, I suppose.

Dave

So, it’s ok to dump on the “big guy,” PS Audio’s parts quality,
but your “little guy,” db audio labs is entitled to a 'bit' of discretion and we're not allowed to see what their parts and build quality looks like. 

PS Audio doesn't seem to have any problem showing the insides of their DAC
and transport. There's lots of pictures in the sixmoon review of the PWT/PWD
and on there website.

I'll bet a lot more hours went into the development of the PWD, than went  into the Tranquility DAC.

[S Clark]

That's a poor analogy.  No one has asked for a schematic.  I think most just want to see the fit and finish and gain a sense of the physical quality of the product, beyond a generic project case.
 
And after the Oppo/Lexicon affair, probably just want to reassure themselves that there isn't a circuit board from an HRT Music Streamer II lurking inside.
 
Steve

Perhaps you are right. However, this unit is offered on a trial basis, and I can understand a manufacturers reluctance to publish photos of the insides.  If you are trying to get a handle on the build quality, perhaps asking which brand caps or resistors might give you the clues you need without divulging proprietary information. 

[Danny Richie]

The proof is in the pudding fellows.

[sl_1800]

I felt really lucky to join the group for the DAC shootout listening session, thanks Danny.   It was great fun hanging out with the guys and all that wonderful equipment. 

Before I start to describe my opinions of the sounds of these DAC’s I would like to remind everyone, there is no replacement for hearing one of these in your own system. I went into this comparison with a good knowledge of the sound of Danny’s system so it was next best thing to hearing them in my own system. So if your in the market for a DAC, always try to get a 30 day return option if possible so you can have plenty of time with your choice in your own room and system.

Just so you will know my listening preferences, I love good imaging and a smooth upper midrange above all else.  I use open baffle speakers, Orion’s, because of their imaging quality. 99% of my music collection is 16/44 files stored on a Drobo and played on a Macbook laptop via iTunes.  My previous DAC was a Cambridge DacMagic, it’s now sold and I’m currently using a Music Streamer II.

I feel for some people the looks and or features of a particular piece of equipment is just as important as the sound.  So I will give a brief run down on what I heard in these machines and my opinion of their “high-end” looks starting in alphabetical order.

Ayre QB-9 USB DAC.

This unit for sure has a high-end look to it, medium sized and the review sample was in silver, not sure if black is available.  Only one input, usb asynchronous and a very nice display to inform you of the sampling frequency of the input signal. 

As for the sound...........I could not stand this thing.  It was by far the worst sounding unit in the bunch.  Very dry, flat, vocals recessed and absolutely boring.  With Eagles Hotel California live, the sound of the audience sounded more like bacon frying, not the sound of a large group of people.  This really grated at me, throughout that entire song the sound of the audience was just an irritant that reminded me of white noise.  Enough said.

DB Audio Labs Tranquility DAC.

This unit is somewhat small, nicely built but not an extreme high-end chassis and comes in basic silver.  The buttons to push, well there aren’t any really, since it has only one input, usb.

The sound on the other had, which is the most important part for me, was nothing short of amazing.  I had heard this DAC in Danny’s system before but didn’t realize just how far it was above the others until this shootout.  The Tranquility has 3D imaging that is to die for, much more analog sounding than the other DAC’s in the group.  And that audience on Hotel California Live, completely 3D, I felt as though I was in the audience, the most real sounding DAC I have every heard.  I don’t mean to carry on but the audience sound really caught me off guard, completely immersive.  I could live very happily  with the Tranquility.

HRT Music Streamer II.

This unit was my own personal unit and was not scheduled to be a part of the shootout, it was included at the last minute at my request.  I got the unit from Amazon and had been playing it 24/7 for one week before the comparison.  When it was cold and first plugged into my system I felt it was something special for only $149.00, this was my reason for asking the guys to include it.

As for looks, there isn’t any really, very tiny, hide it behind your computer or anything else because it’s nothing to look at.  Inputs, only one, async usb and 24/96 capability.  I felt the other guys first judged it by it’s looks and didn’t really think it would “measure up” to the other units on hand.  I found it to be better than I had previously thought.  No it’s not as good as the Tranquility, I would give it 3rd place in my opinion, just a tiny bit too bright compared to the Tranquility or PS PWD, but amazing for only $149.00.

Onix DAC.

Nice looking piece with multiple inputs and has a headphone amp built in. 

I had previously had the chance to hear this unit in my own system so I knew what it was capable of.  Nice sounding unit, just not the last word in refinement, but overall a very good DAC for the money, I ranked it forth.

PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC and Perfect Wave Transport.

These units have good looks in spades and way to many features for me to list.  As for looks and features they are my favorite.  For sound they come in second for me.  Now with the Transport as the source feeding the DAC it first floored me, more than almost anything I have ever heard, with it’s 3D, super deep center stage imaging.  But that is where the fun ended, the sound stage was only between the speakers all though very deep.  When the DAC was feed from the Mac the sound took on an entirely different character.  In this configuration the DAC gave a wider soundstage but not as deep as before.   I found the sound of this unit to be first rate only edged out by the Tranquility in the area of “real sounding”.  I could live with the PS DAC if it was just a little cheaper, given it’s level of performance and it’s price compared to the other units, 3G’s just seems a little tuff to me.

One last thing to include was the DB Audio Labs USB cable.  I have always felt the “high-end” usb cables to be nothing but  snake oil products, I was wrong.  We did all of our listening with the DB Labs cable and then switched to a higher priced, highly rated cable and the sound........went way down hill, closed in and flat compared to the DB Labs cable.  I’m going to purchase the DB cable for sure even though it cost more than my Music Streamer II.

All of this information comes with two of the modern worlds most famous CYA policies.  Some assemble required and your milage may vary.

[JerryM]

...are guys saying that there should never be a published photo of the interior of a component? Isn't it common for most online reviewers to show the internals? I sort of expect it.

Cheers, ed

Online reviewers?

I thought this was just Danny and GR Research doing something pretty cool for all of us here at AC...  I didn't really consider this a 'published' review, wherein the manufacturer and publisher discussed phtographs and such. I thought it was a Listener's 'Shootout'.

IMHO, this thread has been really very cool, from the very start. I sincerely hope there are many more, just like this one. Pictures are not required. 

Have fun,
Jerry

[NekoAudio]

Also, before I get into the comparisons I want to mention that we also had a Neko DAC here as well, but we lost it.

<snip>

Unfortunately the company owner had us send it to a reviewer a week before this get together so it was not included in the mix. The company owner may have reached the limit of his patience as it took us a while to get this comparison going as it was not easy to finally score one of the Ayre DAC's.

Having spent some time with the Neko DAC listening to it just before sending it off, I would have to say that it would have faired really well. I would have put it ahead of the Ayre DAC and the PS Audio transport/DAC combo for sure. I did compare it to my modded (cap change) Tranquility DAC and was very impressed with it. I thought it gave a few things up to the Tranquility but not by leaps and bounds. It held its own quite well, and I would easily still recommend it for audition to anyone interested in it.

Thanks for the mention, Danny. I'm afraid I had been in communication with the other reviewer for a bit and had already delayed once getting a loaner to him. Otherwise once I heard you were getting the Ayre I would've been happy to let you hold onto it a little longer. Just some bad timing since I only found that out afterwards.

Thanks for your understanding, and also for the strong recommendation.

BTW - If anyone would like to compare the Neko Audio D100 to their own DAC, I offer my setup for auditions by appointment. I just had a couple of people here yesterday for a comparison with the Lavry DA10.

[dBe]

So, it’s ok to dump on the “big guy,” PS Audio’s parts quality,
but your “little guy,” db audio labs is entitled to a 'bit' of discretion and we're not allowed to see what their parts and build quality looks like. 

PS Audio doesn't seem to have any problem showing the insides of their DAC
and transport. There's lots of pictures in the sixmoon review of the PWT/PWD
and on there website.

I'll bet a lot more hours went into the development of the PWD, than went  into the Tranquility DAC.

Whatever.  You asked a question and I gave my answer and my reasons. 

I've seen inside both units.  The parts selection in the Tranquility is exemplary.  As far as dumping on PS Audio, I simply gave my opinion.  Their parts are generic "audio grade" parts.  Nothing special.  That is all that I am saying.  PS Audio opts to show pictures of their gear.  Eric doesn't.  I respect his choice. There is too little respect in this world.  To me it would be like someone showing everyone that they know pictures of my wife (or yours) in the nude.     Mine looks very good clothed and that is all anyone else gets but me.

It is extremely difficult being a small business guy in this economy.

Dave

[jhm731]

Whatever.  You asked a question and I gave my answer and my reasons. 

I've seen inside both units.  The parts selection in the Tranquility is exemplary.  As far as dumping on PS Audio, I simply gave my opinion.  Their parts are generic "audio grade" parts.  Nothing special.  That is all that I am saying.  PS Audio opts to show pictures of their gear.  Eric doesn't.  I respect his choice. There is too little respect in this world.  To me it would be like someone showing everyone that they know pictures of my wife (or yours) in the nude.     Mine looks very good clothed and that is all anyone else gets but me.

It is extremely difficult being a small business guy in this economy.

Dave

“As far as dumping on PS Audio, I simply gave my opinion.”

Who asked you to make some "general comments" about PS Audio gear and bash their parts quality?

Yes, it’s extremely difficult being a small business guy in this economy; I know I’d never buy anything from a guy like you.

[low.pfile]

Online reviewers?

I thought this was just Danny and GR Research doing something pretty cool for all of us here at AC...  I didn't really consider this a 'published' review, wherein the manufacturer and publisher discussed phtographs and such. I thought it was a Listener's 'Shootout'.

IMHO, this thread has been really very cool, from the very start. I sincerely hope there are many more, just like this one. Pictures are not required. 

Have fun,
Jerry

Jerry, I interpreted the comments above my first post as stating small manufacturers would never allow photos of the internals of their gear-not specifically referring to this DAC shootout. I understand protecting livelihood, but can you really reverse engineer a product from a general digital photo? I don't know--I am not savvy in electronics.

How small is small? My Red Wine Audio Amp is fairly obscure. though that design may fall into the nothing new category. But that is my reference (as well as my Modwright) and those products and similar do have internal pics when the product is reviewed at 6moons, etc. I was just wondering if the DBAudio or other small manufacturers would forego having the product reviewed if photos were requested?

cheers, ed

[Audioclyde]

Let me add my note of 'thanks' to Danny, Gary and the other participants--my viewpoint on all this is that this is a shootout/get together by a group of enthusiasts like most/all of us.  They have gone to the time, effort & expense (plus had some fun  ) to share with us their reaction/insight/personal preferences--and I truly appreciate it.  Heck I may not buy any of the DAC's they listened to, and of course my preferences in my system might be totally different, but their sharing of their experiences at a minimum gives me a few more items of information that I can use or not use at my own choice.

Thanks guys; I wish you had been able to include the new Eastern Electric DAC in the shootout, but of course the list could go on and on.....

Randy