[rajacat]

From a sales point of view it probably would've been better if the whole Mini/PC tweek issue wasn't raised. Most audiophiles are interested in the best sound at the the best price. Now if the issue is that all dacs sound better if they're fed bits from a Mini/Mac computer then it's a good point but if it's the case that this particular dac is optimized with a Mini then that's a legitimate issue. 

So if you buy the Tranquility and you have a PC based system your audio nervosa will be in the background and you'll be always wondering if you should blow more $$s on a Mini to cure the itch. Some can live with that itch and some can't. Should the bucks for the Mini be added when considering the purchase of this dac?

-  Roy

[Danny Richie]

The things that make the Mac Mini sound better as a server than other computers including other types of Mac's is not related to the Tranquility DAC or any other DAC.

[rajacat]

The things that make the Mac Mini sound better as a server than other computers including other types of Mac's is not related to the Tranquility DAC or any other DAC.

So does this mean that all dacs will sound better with the Mini or could it be related to what chip is used in the dac and how jitter is handled?



-Roy

[Danny Richie]

So does this mean that all dacs will sound better with the Mini or could it be related to what chip is used in the dac and how jitter is handled?

There are so many other things so far and above the chip being used that it is almost not even a consideration.

Here is what I know from experience in my own system using a Mac Mini.

Plugging the Mac Mini into my Uber Buss improved the sound (a little).
Going to an adapter that allowed me to put a real power cable on the Mac Mini's power supply improved the sound (a little).
Shutting down all other operating systems running in the back ground improves the sound (considerably).
Going to a solid state hard drive improved the sound (noticeably).
Going to an external hard drive improved the sound (very noticeably).
Various USB cables hurt or improved the sound (significantly).
Going to a different software and in my case going from iTunes to "Play" made an improvement (considerably).
Going from Tiger operating system to Snow Leopard made an improvement (very noticeable).

You start adding all this stuff up and the difference is even greater than the differences in most DAC's. All this stuff together was HUGE!

[mcullinan]

Id be interested in listening to this DAC. Can it be put on an East Coast tour? Id like to hear it in my system and Im sure we could get a nice group of Long Island/NY folks to join in the tour.
Thanks.
Mike

[roscoeiii]

There is always the 30 day trial with only a $75 restocking fee...

[chadh]

There are so many other things so far and above the chip being used that it is almost not even a consideration.

Here is what I know from experience in my own system using a Mac Mini.

Plugging the Mac Mini into my Uber Buss improved the sound (a little).
Going to an adapter that allowed me to put a real power cable on the Mac Mini's power supply improved the sound (a little).
Shutting down all other operating systems running in the back ground improves the sound (considerably).
Going to a solid state hard drive improved the sound (noticeably).
Going to an external hard drive improved the sound (very noticeably).
Various USB cables hurt or improved the sound (significantly).
Going to a different software and in my case going from iTunes to "Play" made an improvement (considerably).
Going from Tiger operating system to Snow Leopard made an improvement (very noticeable).

You start adding all this stuff up and the difference is even greater than the differences in most DAC's. All this stuff together was HUGE!

I think Danny's long list of improvements from tweaking his Mac Mini shows how unlikely it is that there will ever be any consensus on what computing approach will sound best.  There are just so many dimensions to these machines that can be altered, and many of those change almost on a daily basis due to development of new software, new operating systems and new hardware.

I suspect (and it's only a suspicion) that if I took a reasonably efficient windows machine with a reasonably well laid-out circuit board, experimented using SSDs and external drives, spent days experimenting with USB cables, power cables, power filtration etc, judiciously switched off various Windows functions and tried all sorts of music software (such as the allegedly superior sounding WinAspi player),  I could end up with a transport that sounds just as good as Danny's tweaked Mac Mini.  Someone who knew what he was doing could also probably manage this with a teeny weeny, application-specific linux server too.

The big advantage of the Mac Mini seems to be that, right now, it is a known quantity, and there seems some agreement about various tweaks that deliver performance improvements.  The same consensus will be hard to reach with windows and linux boxes, since there is such a variety of them. 

Chad

[ctviggen]

There are so many other things so far and above the chip being used that it is almost not even a consideration.

Here is what I know from experience in my own system using a Mac Mini.

Plugging the Mac Mini into my Uber Buss improved the sound (a little).
Going to an adapter that allowed me to put a real power cable on the Mac Mini's power supply improved the sound (a little).
Shutting down all other operating systems running in the back ground improves the sound (considerably).
Going to a solid state hard drive improved the sound (noticeably).
Going to an external hard drive improved the sound (very noticeably).
Various USB cables hurt or improved the sound (significantly).
Going to a different software and in my case going from iTunes to "Play" made an improvement (considerably).
Going from Tiger operating system to Snow Leopard made an improvement (very noticeable).

You start adding all this stuff up and the difference is even greater than the differences in most DAC's. All this stuff together was HUGE!

I hate to derail this thread even more than it has been derailed, but you're talking about adding another $500 or more in tweaks to something that's already $500 (or more).  So, not only do you have to buy the Mac Mini, but then you have to tweak it.  And, that's $1,000 on top of a DAC that's 1,500.   You're up to $2,500, which I admit isn't a bad price, but it seems like a ton of work to just play music. 

[timztunz]

There seems to be a growing tendency to cast a negative light on all of these Mac Mini tweaks being discussed.  IMO the Mac Mini doesn't HAVE to be tweaked.  Nor does a room HAVE to get acoustic treatments to sound better.  Neither does a vinyl rig HAVE to get all of the suspension and other tweaks that make it sound better.  A person doesn't HAVE to do anything to their vehicle to improve performance.  None of things HAVE to be done.  We just do them in an attempt to make things better.  I don't see the Mac tweaks to be any different.

[roscoeiii]

All of the Mac Mini related upgrades have the advantage that they can be done incrementally. And many thanks to Danny for letting us know his experience with the degree of improvement that each made. As always in the hobby, it is possible to improve on one's equipment via tweaks of various degrees of effectiveness. And some may be content with stock and leave it that way...

[jhm731]

There is always the 30 day trial with only a $75 restocking fee...

Good point. The Wyred 4 Sound DAC2 has a 15% restocking fee.

[roscoeiii]

I eagerly await comparisons between the W4S and dB. Of course the W4S features may be a selling point for many. But if the dB meets one's connectivity needs, then it will be interesting to see how they stack up via each units USB input...

[mcullinan]

Good point. The Wyred 4 Sound DAC2 has a 15% restocking fee.

Whats the point?

[timztunz]

Whats the point?

That the restocking fee with the Tranquility is $75 where it would be $225 with the Wyred at 15%.

[jrebman]

Well said, Chad.  There are so many variations of PCs and user's levels of savvy and experience with them that it would be nearly impossible to make a blanket statement of which machine is "best".

Windows guys, have you virtualized or stripped down your O? Can you even do that on a Mac (mini or otherwise)?  Have you shutdown all unnecessary I/O devices (I use a local usb hard drive so have my wireless and ethernet adaptors turned off completely, for example.)  The questions like this can go on and on, and it takes a lot of tinkering to hit upon just the right combination, but that applies to any machine.

If anybody is trying to tell me that Apple designed the mini to be a super usb digital audio playback computer, I got news for you, they don't work that way at Apple.  Nor at Microsoft.  If it happened, it was more or less totally an accident, and that same accident can probably be found in some windows boxes too, and certainly in the slick little Alix single-board linux box with no keyboard, video, or hard drive chips and subsystems to contaminate things.

I've been using a first generation Asus Eee box pc with a relative low performance graphics subsystem, but with an upgraded outboard power supply, lots of software tweaks, and it has been used with many usb dacs and is superb with all of them.  I'm sure things will get even better when iI move to a linear ps and install an SSD.

That said, and back to the original point that timmond pointed out, the Eee box as it came sounded fine without any of this stuff, except on dacs where the power supply came through the usb port, and then the noise of the original, horrible switching psu was very audible.

The lesson: try your dac with whatever you have, and if you're neurotic about it, you can start tweaking as your budget and experience dictate.  As for me, my next experiment will be the Alix board running Voyage linux and the MPD software.  Not sure if I'll grab files from a local, attached usb drive or from my NAS over the network, but I'm sure I'll try both at some point.

-- Jim

[roscoeiii]

As this PC-Mac discussion is gathering steam in a dB DAC review thread, I'm thinking it might be better to move this discussion to its own thread (or a preexisting thread on this topic?). We're getting pretty OT, and some folks who may be interested in the topic may be missing out because they aren't interested in the dB DAC...

[bhobba]

I eagerly await comparisons between the W4S and dB. Of course the W4S features may be a selling point for many. But if the dB meets one's connectivity needs, then it will be interesting to see how they stack up via each units USB input...

Exactly.  I really am impressed with what people say about the Tranquility DAC.  But the more I think about it the more I like W4S DAC2.  It can be used as a pre amp and has a home theater bypass mode - things that would be really great in my system.  And not having to buy a pre amp will save money as well.  In fact the cost of the DAC2 is about the same here in Aus as the preamp I was looking at  (the Busrson pre amp).  From my perspective the sound quality of the tranquility needs pot be a lot better to outweigh the cons.  While of course no one can really comment yet I suspect the sound difference will be a really really close thing and although the tranquility dac may win out for me the other features make the W4S a no brainer.

Just a question to Danny.  When you say shut down all other operating systems exactly what do you mean?  Windows is an operating system, MAC OS is an operating system and while it is technically possible to run multiple operating systems simultaneously by using products like VM-ware it is not something that most do.  Do you really mean background applications?

The other thing is that the Mac mini is a windows compatible hardware platform.  You can get rid of the Mac-os if you wish and run it as a windows machine if you like.  Indeed using boot-camp you can switch between the two quite easily and using VM-ware you can even run windows programs inside the mac.  Plenty of stuff you can check out to see exactly what the effects on sonics are.

Thanks
Bill

[Danny Richie]

Do you really mean background applications?

Yes, that is what I meant.

[db audio labs]

Hi Guys,

Some considerations I would like to respond regarding some recent posts:

- Our Tranquility DAC works with any computer solution not just a Mac Mini. We recommend the Mac Mini for those who are looking for true world class sound that is only typical of statement dacs costing upward of $10K...and even more. For those on a budget, or those who don't really care about achieving statement level sonic performance, they could just use their own computer instead. We seriously recommend the Mac Mini solution because for $599 your digital transport goes straight to the head of the World Class line from your source! Where else in audio do you go to go to the very top for this amount of money spent on an audio purchase?

- All USB connected dacs will benefit with a properly configured computer such as the Mac Mini with a really good high end USB cable, not just our Tranquility dac in particular. For example: At Danny's recent shootout between our Tranquility DAC, an Ayre QB-9 and the PS Audio Perfect stack; we found that the PS DAC actually sounded better with the Mac Mini than the PS transport! (I know, I know PS audio owners, it's hard for you to believe, I was very surprised). Please realize though that this was not just a basic Mini as a computer transport. It had 4 gigs of memory, a solid state internal hard drive, an external firewire hard drive and three of the memory resident apps were turned off. Also, it was conneceted via our own Essential USB cable. I didn't actually expect the Mini to outperform the PS transport with its companion PS DAC. It wasn't my idea to even try this experiment! In retrospect though, it does makes some sense. When a computer like the Mini is tricked out correctly, I've seen it sonically outperform one of the most expensive CD transports made. In January, this Mini sonically prevailed over an owner's Uber expensive Esoteric Audio transport. Welcome to the age where computers may be ruling the world of audio...at least when it comes to digital music sources for D/A converters. 

- In regard to some of "the math" posted here about our digital solution. Please be aware that we sell this dac to members of this forum for $1295 and not the $1500 price as stated by others. Additionally, we are intent on giving you guys the BEST sound for your money, not a laundry list of features OR buzz worded tech OR a multitude of digital connections instead. Many here may not realize that multiple digital inputs on a dac design will take the overall sound quality down a couple notches. Ever wondered why our Tranquility DAC only has one digital input? Now you know. Of course, for some, achieving the absolute best sound quality isn't their top priorty. We have no issue with that mindset as ours is a bit purist comparatively.

Our position with dB Audio Labs products is plain and simple. We aim to give you guys the sound quality of digital solutions that would otherwise cost you a fortune. Unlike other sub $5K offerings, we don't prescribe to using $2.49 RCA jacks or op amps or other typical short cuts that affect the overall true sonic capabilities. And dB Audio Labs products are NOT made in China! Every single facet of our Tranquility DAC was developed with true double blind testing. Most importantly, we continue to prove what we've achieved sonically like the most recent comparative between the Ayre QB-9 and PS Audio perfect stack (see GR Research's forum for the reviewer's notes and posts). There will also be an upcoming post on Audiogon of a direct comparison between our Tranquility DAC / Mini / Essential USB cable solution and the highly touted $15,000 Vitus CD player. 

May the best sound win your heart!   

Cheers,

Eric - dB Audio Labs

[bhobba]

Our Tranquility DAC works with any computer solution not just a Mac Mini. We recommend the Mac Mini for those who are looking for true world class sound that is only typical of statement dacs costing upward of $10K...and even more. For those on a budget, or those who don't really care about achieving statement level sonic performance, they could just use their own computer instead. We seriously recommend the Mac Mini solution because for $599 your digital transport goes straight to the head of the World Class line from your source! Where else in audio do you go to go to the very top for this amount of money spent on an audio purchase?

Yes - as mentioned previously you converted me.

In regard to some of "the math" posted here about our digital solution. Please be aware that we sell this dac to members of this forum for $1295 and not the $1500 price as stated by others. Additionally, we are intent on giving you guys the BEST sound for your money, not a laundry list of features OR buzz worded tech OR a multitude of digital connections instead. Many here may not realize that multiple digital inputs on a dac design will take the overall sound quality down a couple notches. Ever wondered why our Tranquility DAC only has one digital input? Now you know. Of course, for some, achieving the absolute best sound quality isn't their top priorty. We have no issue with that mindset as ours is a bit purist comparatively.

Point taken.  But as a guy that is rebuilding his setup from scratch financial considerations such as a dac with volume control that can feed directly into amps and with home theater pass though is something I need to take seriously when the cost of doing that is the same as getting a decent pre amp alone.  Another option is to get an amp with a built in pre amp and there are some ones around that appeal.  But the amp I am really interested in (a Soraya) is not offered like that.  I suspect you are correct - your dac may be the better choice.  Its all part of the decision making process.

Our position with dB Audio Labs products is plain and simple. We aim to give you guys the sound quality of digital solutions that would otherwise cost you a fortune. Unlike other sub $5K offerings, we don't prescribe to using $2.49 RCA jacks or op amps or other typical short cuts that affect the overall true sonic capabilities. And dB Audio Labs products are NOT made in China! Every single facet of our Tranquility DAC was developed with true double blind testing. Most importantly, we continue to prove what we've achieved sonically like the most recent comparative between the Ayre QB-9 and PS Audio perfect stack (see GR Research's forum for the reviewer's notes and posts). There will also be an upcoming post on Audiogon of a direct comparison between our Tranquility DAC / Mini / Essential USB cable solution and the highly touted $15,000 Vitus CD player. 

Now you have touched something very dear to me.  The issue of double blind listening tests.  We often hear the most god awful gush from audio reviewers (and in all honesty I must say that is definitely NOT the norm around here - Danny's DAC shootout review was great IMHO) but seldom do we hear them subjected to a double blind test.  I know from personal experience how the guff touted by some salesmen in HI FI stores melts right away when subjected to that.  Time and time again it has bought supposed claims to its knees.  Even reviewers like John Atkinson at Stereophile have had to resort to touchy feely stuff such as product mystique etc to justify much more expensive products that sound absolutely identical in a blind listening test.  He relates a story of how he sold a much more expensive amp to buy a cheaper one after he could not detect any difference in a blind listening test.  But he was dissatisfied with it because as he said the magic was gone.  Sure it sounded exactly the same but it didn't evoke the same type of enjoyment.

The fact you used it to design your amp really really tempts me to go down a different path than I planned.  I will need to give this a lot of thought.

To help me in that some blind listening tests with this DAC and others like the W4S would be really helpful.  But I am not immune to the mystique thing myself either - the fact you use double blind listening tests is itself an attraction and could sway me over other considerations.

Thanks
Bill